4 ms·

Ok so please enlighten me on what basis nations should form? The whole basis of a nation is the creation of an in group and an out group.

pmoriarty 6y ago
"on what basis nations should form?" Free association. As the inscription on the Statue of Liberty says, "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free". It's variety of people, customs, cultures, and opinions which make for a healthy nation, not a monoculture of brainwashed xenophobes.
- rufus_foreman 6y ago
  >> As the inscription on the Statue of Liberty says There is only one inscription on the Statue of Liberty, it reads "JULY IV MDCCLXXVI".
- meowface 6y ago
  It makes me wonder: in some centuries from now (assuming humanity is still largely intact), will most people stop caring about the land mass they're born on and perhaps deliberately join a powerful organization that largely takes the place of a national identity? Kind of like MMORPG "guilds" - deeper than a company, and more voluntary than a nation. Slate Star Codex's Archipelago concept might also be of interest here: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/06/07/archipelago-and-atomic-communitarianism/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/06/07/archipelago-and-atomic... If this ever does happen, how might in-group favoritism and out-group hostility change on average? I think people voluntarily self-organizing based on their preferences and principles is definitely preferable to something arbitrary foisted upon you at birth, and of course tribalism will always exist in almost any situation, but there are some interesting trade-offs to think about here. What are the odds a hypothetical future without nationalism leads to a form of tribalism that's riskier than nationalistic tribalism? People may feel a deeper identity connection to something they've actively joined for philosophical and sociological reasons, rather than due to their GPS coordinates or what their parents believe. There could be something like (cold or hot) religious wars, except with a ton of different religions forming and changing all the time, and based on differing principles and practices instead of differing supernatural beliefs.
  - robin21 6y ago
    You could look towards the EU today for some clues. You have 27 nations of quite different cultures and socioeconomic status with free movement of labor. I have found though that people like their country's customs and traditions a lot and are proud of the country their parents are from. However it's true that based on how strongly held some political beliefs are, some people would identify more with those from another country with the same political beliefs than those in their own country. Same with religion. It's important then to have things they share in common so they can get along in day-to-day life whilst disagreeing about other things. Diversity of thought and opinion is important, and I would argue thats its actually a good thing to have GPS coordinates determining a grouping, rather than letting people form groups with who they get along with best. What is the optimal grouping of countries and politics is an interesting question to ponder. Lots of lessons can be learned from history on this such as how borders of countries were drawn during British colonialism and also after each World War. The goal perhaps is to find the largest groups of people to put together whose political spectrums are not too wide that people can't get along with one another.
netizen-9748 6y ago
Considering a nation is defined by its borders, I would assume land area rather than ethnic groups.
- kabouseng 6y ago
  Really??? Which borders? What seperates Germany from France from Turkey? Why not throw all of them together. Why not go all the way, and add Russia to the mix? Do you foresee this being practical in the real world? Which takes us back to my original comment on the OP's post, whom decry'ed nationalism as evil. And me saying that statement as being too simplistic a take on reality.
  - aaron-santos 6y ago
    It would help to explain what purpose you think borders serve.
  - netizen-9748 6y ago
    I'm sorry but I don't understand what point you are attempting to make. You listed several nations that already exist, and then said we should lump them together for some reason? I'm not sure I follow.
devonkim 6y ago
A system of laws people agree to. Many Americans clearly don’t want to live by the same set of laws and so secession is coming back again. The tribalism currently being shown is that people almost discriminate viscerally more on basis of political alignment than about race, gender, or even religion now (Catholics and Protestants aligning together in the US around any political identity is a massive shift in the political landscape of the past 200 years).

pmoriarty 6y ago

"on what basis nations should form?" Free association. As the inscription on the Statue of Liberty says, "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free". It's variety of people, customs, cultures, and opinions which make for a healthy nation, not a monoculture of brainwashed xenophobes.

rufus_foreman 6y ago
>> As the inscription on the Statue of Liberty says There is only one inscription on the Statue of Liberty, it reads "JULY IV MDCCLXXVI".
meowface 6y ago
It makes me wonder: in some centuries from now (assuming humanity is still largely intact), will most people stop caring about the land mass they're born on and perhaps deliberately join a powerful organization that largely takes the place of a national identity? Kind of like MMORPG "guilds" - deeper than a company, and more voluntary than a nation. Slate Star Codex's Archipelago concept might also be of interest here: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/06/07/archipelago-and-atomic-communitarianism/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/06/07/archipelago-and-atomic... If this ever does happen, how might in-group favoritism and out-group hostility change on average? I think people voluntarily self-organizing based on their preferences and principles is definitely preferable to something arbitrary foisted upon you at birth, and of course tribalism will always exist in almost any situation, but there are some interesting trade-offs to think about here. What are the odds a hypothetical future without nationalism leads to a form of tribalism that's riskier than nationalistic tribalism? People may feel a deeper identity connection to something they've actively joined for philosophical and sociological reasons, rather than due to their GPS coordinates or what their parents believe. There could be something like (cold or hot) religious wars, except with a ton of different religions forming and changing all the time, and based on differing principles and practices instead of differing supernatural beliefs.
- robin21 6y ago
  You could look towards the EU today for some clues. You have 27 nations of quite different cultures and socioeconomic status with free movement of labor. I have found though that people like their country's customs and traditions a lot and are proud of the country their parents are from. However it's true that based on how strongly held some political beliefs are, some people would identify more with those from another country with the same political beliefs than those in their own country. Same with religion. It's important then to have things they share in common so they can get along in day-to-day life whilst disagreeing about other things. Diversity of thought and opinion is important, and I would argue thats its actually a good thing to have GPS coordinates determining a grouping, rather than letting people form groups with who they get along with best. What is the optimal grouping of countries and politics is an interesting question to ponder. Lots of lessons can be learned from history on this such as how borders of countries were drawn during British colonialism and also after each World War. The goal perhaps is to find the largest groups of people to put together whose political spectrums are not too wide that people can't get along with one another.

netizen-9748 6y ago

Considering a nation is defined by its borders, I would assume land area rather than ethnic groups.

kabouseng 6y ago
Really??? Which borders? What seperates Germany from France from Turkey? Why not throw all of them together. Why not go all the way, and add Russia to the mix? Do you foresee this being practical in the real world? Which takes us back to my original comment on the OP's post, whom decry'ed nationalism as evil. And me saying that statement as being too simplistic a take on reality.
- aaron-santos 6y ago
  It would help to explain what purpose you think borders serve.
- netizen-9748 6y ago
  I'm sorry but I don't understand what point you are attempting to make. You listed several nations that already exist, and then said we should lump them together for some reason? I'm not sure I follow.

devonkim 6y ago

A system of laws people agree to. Many Americans clearly don’t want to live by the same set of laws and so secession is coming back again. The tribalism currently being shown is that people almost discriminate viscerally more on basis of political alignment than about race, gender, or even religion now (Catholics and Protestants aligning together in the US around any political identity is a massive shift in the political landscape of the past 200 years).