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> I can't believe people talk like this on a work public channel. Not sure if you're referring to the instance of the egregious anti-Semitic joke (CW for that

by btown 6y ago

> I can't believe people talk like this on a work public channel. Not sure if you're referring to the instance of the egregious anti-Semitic joke (CW for that link, btw), or to the bulk of the communications, but for any who feel the latter, that any conversation involving Nazism is improper, I'd consider a counterpoint: We're in an industry where it's very easy for our work to be used for horrible things, where indeed there are historical examples of technology being used to accelerate the operations of genocide, and it's not only appropriate but essential that the employees of companies be allowed to call out fascism, and express their fear and dismay of Nazis, to colleagues whenever they see it, regardless of whether it is immediately linked to a product initiative. The comment that states "you dont see 'commie' being dropped in the workplace nor should 'nazi,' it's just slandering" is the false equivalency of the century, and if we can't distinguish between words that over-simplify a political ideology, vs. words that concisely warn colleagues that something is going beyond political ideology and towards a pattern of racially-motivated behavior that places people in grave danger, we haven't learned our lessons from history.

drstewart 6y ago
Except that the comments weren't in the context of any product initiative or related to company business at all. I'm sure Christians or other religious sects feel that it's essential that they proselytize their gospel to you, but I don't think you'd be very happy if you were getting bombarded with messages about it at work. There's really no reason the kinds of conversations linked above should be happening with frequency in a company chat room. If you want to be an activist, great. Do it after hours.
- geofft 6y ago
  The comment in question was "stay safe homies nazis are about". Telling employees to stay safe is absolutely related to company business. Not having employees be killed by Nazis is absolutely an important part of product initiatives.
  - drstewart 6y ago
    I'm talking about the conversations linked in the Engadget article. Though by that ludicrous logic you can say anything is company business. Saving an employees morality is absolutely important to a company from a Christians prospective. So is preventing them from dying, so surely you're okay with people harassing you at work about skydiving or rock climbing or drug use?
    - jakelazaroff 6y ago
      What impact does an employee’s “morality” have on the business, from a Christian perspective? I don’t actually believe there’s a cogent argument that e.g. premarital sex makes someone less effective at their job.
      - drstewart 6y ago
        What about theft? Drug use? Fraud? Clearly these can affect your performance at work, so it's completely fine to proselytize at work.
        drstewart 6y ago
        >It’s a looooong jump from “don’t steal from the company” to “Christ is your savior”. Almost as long of a jump as "I'm scared for your safety for a riot that occurred a week ago, so I need to retroactively warn you about Nazis"
        jakelazaroff 6y ago
        If you’re referring to the GitHub situation, the comment in question was made as the attack was ongoing.
        jakelazaroff 6y ago
        It’s a looooong jump from “don’t steal from the company” to “Christ is your savior”.
pc86 6y ago
I think we agree on the larger point but I disagree with a couple of your points here. > it's not only appropriate but essential that the employees of companies be allowed to call out fascism, and express their fear and dismay of Nazis, to colleagues whenever they see it Fascism is the reprehensible government structure du jour but I think it's wrong to be single-sided here. Employees should be allowed to call out things they disagree with. It doesn't necessarily mean anything will happen, and they end up leaving the company because of it. But I do think there are quite a few conservative, non-fascist, anti-Nazi people who will read a "employees can call out fascism!" comment and feel at least a bit like it's meant toward them as more conservative that most people in tech. I was a #nevertrump Republican throughout the primary and changed my party registration the day after his nomination. I think he's done 10x the damage to conservatism than Nixon ever could have. But I'm sure there are people here who, because I was a registered Republican during the Obama administration, view me as a fascist. I'm positive there are people who are registered Republicans today who hate what Trump is doing (both to the party and to the country), working in tech, and reading HN right now. > regardless of whether it is immediately linked to a product initiative This I'm not so sure about. I mean GitHub exists to ship software, and for the most part if you're communicating over a GitHub channel it should probably be about that. The fact that they have DEI channels and race-based channels and such on the official Slack in the first place is probably a larger discussion in itself. > The comment that states "you dont see 'commie' being dropped in the workplace nor should 'nazi,' it's just slandering" is the false equivalency of the century, and if we can't distinguish between words that over-simplify a political ideology, vs. words that concisely warn colleagues that something is going beyond political ideology and towards a pattern of racially-motivated behavior that places people in grave danger, we haven't learned our lessons from history. With regard to the 6th specifically, absolutely agree. With regard to the language more generally, though, you're assuming that "commie" is always an over-simplification and "nazi" never is. Something actually are communism, which is responsible for a couple hundred million deaths historically, so while not directly racially related, it's not exactly a great thing. Commie also doesn't have quite the negative connotation of Nazi, and rightfully so. So even arguing the point feels a little like arguing about "cracker" vs. the n word. One is obviously worse, regardless of context.
- manicdee 6y ago
laresistance 6y ago
> vs. words that concisely warn colleagues that something is going beyond political ideology and towards a pattern of racially-motivated behavior that places people in grave danger, we haven't learned our lessons from history. Don't the more radical leftist circles fit exactly this description, except that they just paint a different racial group as the enemy?
- jfrunyon 6y ago
  What "racial group" do "radical leftist circles" paint as the enemy, pray tell? And how does one bad thing justify another bad thing?
  - laresistance 6y ago
    Well I saw plenty of opinions of radical left wing people calling for pretty atrocious things against "CIS white males". I don't believe violence should be justified, one way or another.
YeBanKo 6y ago
> The comment that states "you dont see 'commie' being dropped in the workplace nor should 'nazi,' it's just slandering" is the false equivalency of the century That comment about slandering is a bs and a person making it is a hypocrite. There were people, whose clothes literally manifested that they were Nazis. Camp Auschwitz, 6MWE, there is no guesswork, they themselves declared that they are Nazis.

by btown 6y ago

drstewart 6y ago

Except that the comments weren't in the context of any product initiative or related to company business at all. I'm sure Christians or other religious sects feel that it's essential that they proselytize their gospel to you, but I don't think you'd be very happy if you were getting bombarded with messages about it at work. There's really no reason the kinds of conversations linked above should be happening with frequency in a company chat room. If you want to be an activist, great. Do it after hours.

geofft 6y ago
The comment in question was "stay safe homies nazis are about". Telling employees to stay safe is absolutely related to company business. Not having employees be killed by Nazis is absolutely an important part of product initiatives.
- drstewart 6y ago
  I'm talking about the conversations linked in the Engadget article. Though by that ludicrous logic you can say anything is company business. Saving an employees morality is absolutely important to a company from a Christians prospective. So is preventing them from dying, so surely you're okay with people harassing you at work about skydiving or rock climbing or drug use?
  - jakelazaroff 6y ago
    What impact does an employee’s “morality” have on the business, from a Christian perspective? I don’t actually believe there’s a cogent argument that e.g. premarital sex makes someone less effective at their job.
    - drstewart 6y ago
      What about theft? Drug use? Fraud? Clearly these can affect your performance at work, so it's completely fine to proselytize at work.
      - drstewart 6y ago
        >It’s a looooong jump from “don’t steal from the company” to “Christ is your savior”. Almost as long of a jump as "I'm scared for your safety for a riot that occurred a week ago, so I need to retroactively warn you about Nazis"
        jakelazaroff 6y ago
        If you’re referring to the GitHub situation, the comment in question was made as the attack was ongoing.
      - jakelazaroff 6y ago
        It’s a looooong jump from “don’t steal from the company” to “Christ is your savior”.

pc86 6y ago

I think we agree on the larger point but I disagree with a couple of your points here. > it's not only appropriate but essential that the employees of companies be allowed to call out fascism, and express their fear and dismay of Nazis, to colleagues whenever they see it Fascism is the reprehensible government structure du jour but I think it's wrong to be single-sided here. Employees should be allowed to call out things they disagree with. It doesn't necessarily mean anything will happen, and they end up leaving the company because of it. But I do think there are quite a few conservative, non-fascist, anti-Nazi people who will read a "employees can call out fascism!" comment and feel at least a bit like it's meant toward them as more conservative that most people in tech. I was a #nevertrump Republican throughout the primary and changed my party registration the day after his nomination. I think he's done 10x the damage to conservatism than Nixon ever could have. But I'm sure there are people here who, because I was a registered Republican during the Obama administration, view me as a fascist. I'm positive there are people who are registered Republicans today who hate what Trump is doing (both to the party and to the country), working in tech, and reading HN right now. > regardless of whether it is immediately linked to a product initiative This I'm not so sure about. I mean GitHub exists to ship software, and for the most part if you're communicating over a GitHub channel it should probably be about that. The fact that they have DEI channels and race-based channels and such on the official Slack in the first place is probably a larger discussion in itself. > The comment that states "you dont see 'commie' being dropped in the workplace nor should 'nazi,' it's just slandering" is the false equivalency of the century, and if we can't distinguish between words that over-simplify a political ideology, vs. words that concisely warn colleagues that something is going beyond political ideology and towards a pattern of racially-motivated behavior that places people in grave danger, we haven't learned our lessons from history. With regard to the 6th specifically, absolutely agree. With regard to the language more generally, though, you're assuming that "commie" is always an over-simplification and "nazi" never is. Something actually are communism, which is responsible for a couple hundred million deaths historically, so while not directly racially related, it's not exactly a great thing. Commie also doesn't have quite the negative connotation of Nazi, and rightfully so. So even arguing the point feels a little like arguing about "cracker" vs. the n word. One is obviously worse, regardless of context.

manicdee 6y ago

laresistance 6y ago

> vs. words that concisely warn colleagues that something is going beyond political ideology and towards a pattern of racially-motivated behavior that places people in grave danger, we haven't learned our lessons from history. Don't the more radical leftist circles fit exactly this description, except that they just paint a different racial group as the enemy?

jfrunyon 6y ago
What "racial group" do "radical leftist circles" paint as the enemy, pray tell? And how does one bad thing justify another bad thing?
- laresistance 6y ago
  Well I saw plenty of opinions of radical left wing people calling for pretty atrocious things against "CIS white males". I don't believe violence should be justified, one way or another.

YeBanKo 6y ago

> The comment that states "you dont see 'commie' being dropped in the workplace nor should 'nazi,' it's just slandering" is the false equivalency of the century That comment about slandering is a bs and a person making it is a hypocrite. There were people, whose clothes literally manifested that they were Nazis. Camp Auschwitz, 6MWE, there is no guesswork, they themselves declared that they are Nazis.