6 ms·

Mahatma Gandhi's killer venerated as Hindu nationalism resurges in India

49 points by 737min 6y ago

rasengan 6y ago
The narrative can even make Gandhi’s killer a hero if it so wishes.
- KONAir 6y ago
  It made even Gandhi a hero, so why not?
  - rasengan 6y ago
    Well played.
ComputerGuru 6y ago
For those interested, this is a much longer but also much more in-depth read on the issue: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/12/09/blood-and-soil-in-narendra-modis-india https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/12/09/blood-and-soil... (Beware, previous posts on this topic have been brigaded on HN and Reddit. At least HN makes it somewhat easy to spot in the discussion.)
- 737min 6y ago
  Thank you for the link & the warning!
- dang 6y ago
  "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
  - ComputerGuru 6y ago
    Thanks, dang. My apologies.
- pm90 6y ago
  This was very difficult to read. It appears that India's institutions have already failed and there is no stopping this deeply undemocratic and unsecular governance structure. The idea that India is being governed currently by a fascist is almost too much to bear.
pmoriarty 6y ago
Not that it's going to change anyone's mind, but to me nationalism of any kind is one of the most pernicious scourges on humanity, which has led to the murder of hundreds of millions throughout history and is likely to do so again. --- In the comments multiple people are making the mistake of thinking that nationalism is the belief that nations should exist. That's not nationalism. People can be against nationalism and still believe that nations should exist. Gandhi was just such a person, and he was murdered by a Hindu nationalist. Nationalism is the belief that the group you're part of (usually tied to some national identity myth) is superior to others, and usually goes hand-in-hand with xenophobia, racism, bigotry, and fascism. From the article: ""Godse did the right thing by killing Gandhi," said Devendra Pandey, 53, national secretary of Hindu Mahasabha, the Hindu nationalist organisation behind the memorial library. He was vocal in his belief that India should be declared "a country rightfully for Hindus" and that its 200 million Muslims should move to Pakistan." Those 200 million Muslims who live in India and are part of the Indian nation, yet they're not Indian enough for the nationalists, just like German Jews were not German enough for the Nazis. There are close parallels in other nationalist movements from all over the globe, in calls for "America for the Americans" where you have to "love it or leave it" and calls for English to be made the national language and Christianity the national religion... very much like Hindu nationalists in India calling for Hinduism (their own version) to be the national religion to the exclusion of Muslims and other minorities. Violent repression of people outside the in-group is another feature of nationalism, and again it has nothing to do with believing that nations should exist, but has everything to do with feeling superior to the people being murdered, tortured, robbed, discriminated against and driven out of their homes. This is why Neo-Nazis are "white nationalists", and you're more than a little confused if you think they are some sorts of defenders of the right of nations to exist and not bigoted, hateful, violent oppressors of everyone not exactly like them. This is why nationalism is pernicious, whatever the flavor.
- taeric 6y ago
  Is this even that controversial of a take?
  - ryder9 6y ago
orange_tee 6y ago
The word "nationalism" has opposite meanings depending on the people you ask and the context. Nationalism can be understood as the opposition to globalism. Nationalism can also be understood as a push to unite a related people under a single nation state. India's nationalism is of the second kind, but westerners in 21st century have come to understood nationalism to mean that of the first kind: an opposition to supranational organization. I am not making any arguments for whatever kind of nationalism being however good or bad. So don't misunderstand what I am saying.
- walshemj 6y ago
  Sectarianism is what we are seeing in India
eddhead 6y ago
Guardian complaining about democratically elected right wing governments, colour me surprised. Barely a mention by Guardian about it's terror breeding, human rights despising neighbors. Minorities in India are still thriving regardless of the loose words of random politicians.
neilsense 6y ago
My favourite thing about the 2020s is when the historical oppressors are the bearers of the one true way of thinking and everyone has to conform to that. A lot of Indians have an issue with Gandhi, Hindus and Muslims. India is a huge country and for every Gandhi that took the spotlight, there were thousands of people that will be forever forgotten. There were huge disagreements on how freedom should have been gained, and what to do afterwards. The suffering is still real, and the partitioning of India is still taking a toll today. The west may have chosen their hero but India is still working some things out.

49 points by 737min 6y ago

rasengan 6y ago

The narrative can even make Gandhi’s killer a hero if it so wishes.

KONAir 6y ago
It made even Gandhi a hero, so why not?
- rasengan 6y ago
  Well played.

ComputerGuru 6y ago

For those interested, this is a much longer but also much more in-depth read on the issue: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/12/09/blood-and-soil-in-narendra-modis-india https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/12/09/blood-and-soil... (Beware, previous posts on this topic have been brigaded on HN and Reddit. At least HN makes it somewhat easy to spot in the discussion.)

737min 6y ago
Thank you for the link & the warning!
dang 6y ago
"Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0&query=by:dang%20astroturf https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
- ComputerGuru 6y ago
  Thanks, dang. My apologies.
pm90 6y ago
This was very difficult to read. It appears that India's institutions have already failed and there is no stopping this deeply undemocratic and unsecular governance structure. The idea that India is being governed currently by a fascist is almost too much to bear.

pmoriarty 6y ago

Not that it's going to change anyone's mind, but to me nationalism of any kind is one of the most pernicious scourges on humanity, which has led to the murder of hundreds of millions throughout history and is likely to do so again. --- In the comments multiple people are making the mistake of thinking that nationalism is the belief that nations should exist. That's not nationalism. People can be against nationalism and still believe that nations should exist. Gandhi was just such a person, and he was murdered by a Hindu nationalist. Nationalism is the belief that the group you're part of (usually tied to some national identity myth) is superior to others, and usually goes hand-in-hand with xenophobia, racism, bigotry, and fascism. From the article: ""Godse did the right thing by killing Gandhi," said Devendra Pandey, 53, national secretary of Hindu Mahasabha, the Hindu nationalist organisation behind the memorial library. He was vocal in his belief that India should be declared "a country rightfully for Hindus" and that its 200 million Muslims should move to Pakistan." Those 200 million Muslims who live in India and are part of the Indian nation, yet they're not Indian enough for the nationalists, just like German Jews were not German enough for the Nazis. There are close parallels in other nationalist movements from all over the globe, in calls for "America for the Americans" where you have to "love it or leave it" and calls for English to be made the national language and Christianity the national religion... very much like Hindu nationalists in India calling for Hinduism (their own version) to be the national religion to the exclusion of Muslims and other minorities. Violent repression of people outside the in-group is another feature of nationalism, and again it has nothing to do with believing that nations should exist, but has everything to do with feeling superior to the people being murdered, tortured, robbed, discriminated against and driven out of their homes. This is why Neo-Nazis are "white nationalists", and you're more than a little confused if you think they are some sorts of defenders of the right of nations to exist and not bigoted, hateful, violent oppressors of everyone not exactly like them. This is why nationalism is pernicious, whatever the flavor.

taeric 6y ago
Is this even that controversial of a take?
- ryder9 6y ago

orange_tee 6y ago

The word "nationalism" has opposite meanings depending on the people you ask and the context. Nationalism can be understood as the opposition to globalism. Nationalism can also be understood as a push to unite a related people under a single nation state. India's nationalism is of the second kind, but westerners in 21st century have come to understood nationalism to mean that of the first kind: an opposition to supranational organization. I am not making any arguments for whatever kind of nationalism being however good or bad. So don't misunderstand what I am saying.

walshemj 6y ago
Sectarianism is what we are seeing in India

eddhead 6y ago

Guardian complaining about democratically elected right wing governments, colour me surprised. Barely a mention by Guardian about it's terror breeding, human rights despising neighbors. Minorities in India are still thriving regardless of the loose words of random politicians.

neilsense 6y ago

My favourite thing about the 2020s is when the historical oppressors are the bearers of the one true way of thinking and everyone has to conform to that. A lot of Indians have an issue with Gandhi, Hindus and Muslims. India is a huge country and for every Gandhi that took the spotlight, there were thousands of people that will be forever forgotten. There were huge disagreements on how freedom should have been gained, and what to do afterwards. The suffering is still real, and the partitioning of India is still taking a toll today. The west may have chosen their hero but India is still working some things out.