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I bought a Microsoft Surface laptop 13” for work to test builds with. That laptop has a headphone port, USB-A, USB-C and a proprietary Microsoft port the power

I bought a Microsoft Surface laptop 13” for work to test builds with. That laptop has a headphone port, USB-A, USB-C and a proprietary Microsoft port the power adapter plugs into. Don’t have that adapter handy while traveling? You can still charge it via the USB-C port with another charger. I can see Apple copying another facet of Microsoft’s Surface line. The other being the Magic Keyboard for the iPad Pro.

fastball 6y ago
That sounds like a terrible idea. Why have a proprietary charge port if it can also charge with USB-C?
- Brozilean 6y ago
  Why would having multiple options be bad? It doesn't turn the usb c port into a useless port or anything?
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    > Why would having multiple options be bad? Because this is how you end up with a Homer Car of a device.
    - waheoo 6y ago
      That's a bit myopic. You can strike a balance. You're argument is the same thing that led to "we should get rid of headphone jacks because we have Bluetooth." Bluetooth is an option, its not the best option, but I wouldn't suggest removing Bluetooth because we have a headphone jack.
      - chrisseaton 6y ago
        > You're argument is the same thing that led to "we should get rid of headphone jacks because we have Bluetooth." I mean... yeah it's the same argument and I agree with both. When we got Bluetooth and decent ear pods... time to get rid of the headphone jack we don't want both, one is redundant. Simpler, cleaner, more uniform is better for these devices in my opinion.
        projektfu 6y ago
        I'm just one data point but thanks to "courage" I hardly ever use headphones on my iPhone anymore. I never have the lightning earpods with me, and it can't use any of the random headphones I had stashed in various useful locations. Bluetooth headphones don't really fit into my life either. Thanks, Jony.
        pushrax 6y ago
        Wireless headphones are an e-waste nightmare (in particular Airpods, designed to never be disassembled). When used with a mobile phone, their convenience is incredibly minor, and for me is more than offset by the need to keep them charged. I agree with getting rid of dying interfaces, but this is a case where it makes way more sense to keep options available. Almost everyone uses audio, and different people have different priorities. Waterproofing the jack is easy, and phones still have enough space for them. The only way I can interpret their decision to remove that jack was to incentivize wireless headphone sales, and perhaps appeal to the small ultra minimalist crowd.
        chrisseaton 6y ago
        Does the fact that there's a tiny and cheap dongle not make it all ok? You can keep using whatever devices you want if you've got some special use-case. Just pop the dongle in. For everyone else... we don't have to add it to the devices and we get a better device.
        pushrax 6y ago
        Apple's 3.5mm audio dongles are honestly very well engineered and they're selling them at an uncharacteristically reasonable markup. Great DAC implementation. I use mine all the time. I just don't believe most people think the device is better without the headphone jack. It's not a "special use-case". Deleting the jack has definitely driven some sales for wireless headphones to people who don't want to use the dongle, rather than a desire to get rid of the wire. For some reason it's very hard to find a cheap and solid way to charge via Lightning and use wired audio at the same time. My workaround is to charge after I'm done listening. Probably good for reducing phone use, but it can be annoying on occasion.
- jahnu 6y ago
  Because it's a magnetic port similar to magsafe.
- toper-centage 6y ago
  I had an XPS that had both and indeed it was useless to have a port for just charging. But if the charging port is also used for magsafe that makes it worth it.
  - dschuler 6y ago
    The XPS 15 has a dedicated charging port that can draw much more power for the discrete GPU - up to 130W, but lets you charge it on the go with the USB-C port. You get full graphics performance with one but have the choice not to lug around a larger power brick on the go. Why would I want only one option when I can have both?
- Haemm0r 6y ago
  Maybe because of the power requirements?
- FractalParadigm 6y ago
  All kinds of reasons - my biggest one being why MagSafe was invented in the first place; I know my power cord is run across the living room due to a lack of power outlets in my 70-year-old apartment, and gets tripped over regularly. Not to mention a proprietary charger can free up a USB port for additional peripherals.
  - waheoo 6y ago
    For those that don't get it, CPUs can only have so many USB-c ports wired up, it's all trade offs. Wiring a charger through different circuitry gives you an extra port. It's also easier to pump more wattage through and tends to be a bit more durable because thicker connectors can be used.
    - dmitriid 6y ago
      > For those that don't get it, CPUs can only have so many USB-c ports wired up I don't get it. Why? And how many is "so many"?
  - kube-system 6y ago
    Tripping over a power cable was a problem created by a battery life that was shorter than a work day, IMO. I have been charging my M1 Mac at night, like my phone.
    - behnamoh 6y ago
      Wait a couple years and you can say goodbye to your MBA superb battery capacity. Mine is now at 70% after only 3 years and less than 400 cycles. For all the buzz it receives, Apple does not really provide the highest quality. I’ve concluded that: “Apple gives you awesome first impression and terrible relationship in the long term.”
      - angott 6y ago
        This is a problem with all laptop batteries, not just Apple batteries.
- beowulfey 6y ago
  It’s a bit redundant, but pretty far from being terrible. I have it on my laptop. Offhand it’s nice to leave the port free if you have a lot of usb needs. If anything it provides some flexibility. Can’t say it’s necessary but I certainly don’t mind it.
- javajosh 6y ago
  Yes, a terrible idea, like putting a motor on a sailboat! I mean, why would you ever need 2 methods of propulsion?! (Some boaters even bring oars and towline! Insane!)
  - chris_wot 6y ago
    That analogy is silly. Two methods of propulsion is a good idea - when the wind is not blowing then use the engine. If the engine runs out of petroleum use the engine. Having a proprietary power interface and a USB C interface that does the same thing is ridiculous.
    - Retric 6y ago
      USB-C can’t charge nearly as quickly as a high power proprietary charger. In use USB-C needs to supply power for both charging and operating the laptop, so what might take 3 hours to charge with USB-C might take 20 minutes to charge with a dedicated connector. That’s not to say every laptop’s proprietary charger will supply noticeably more than 100W, but many examples exist.
      - oblio 6y ago
        I'd be surprised if a 13" Surface doesn't charge well enough at 100W, though.
        Retric 6y ago
        13” Surface laptops had up to 90Wh of battery. Batteries get hot when charging due to inefficiency, meaning it takes more than 90Wh to charge a 90Wh battery. Subtract the power demand while in use and your well over an hour to fully charge. By comparison a quick charge to 80% in under 20 minutes while under full load should be possible assuming sufficient cooling and power. That’s not a huge deal most of the time, but it’s still plenty useful if your sharing a single outlet etc.
        6y ago
- interestica 6y ago
  The MS proprietary cable doesn't follow the USB-c spec and can therefore do a lot more (and I think it's still expandable). I think usbc is limited to 20V @ 5a?. And using USBC for charging takes up a data port. And many docks and stands make use of the MS port. And the MS cable is magnetic.
  - fastball 6y ago
    Obviously you’d never just remove the power port and not replace it with anything, you’d replace the power port with another USB-C port.
- SkyPuncher 6y ago
  I have a Surface Go with a similar setup. The proprietary one is a magnet-style and rests flush against the device. USB-C is convenient to have, but the proprietary charger is much better if I'm going to be using the device while charging.
- dangerbird2 6y ago
  Except in practice, you get the worst of both worlds: a proprietary charger that looks like a USB-C. And even if it is proprietary, the Magsafe and similar ports are miles ahead of any USB-C charger in preventing tripping and IO port damage from dogs, children, and clumsy adults walking over the charger (granted, USB-C is a huge improvement over traditional round DC ports)
madhadron 6y ago
We went to Surfaces in my house for a while. They're by and large fine, but Windows 10 is sufficiently painful and hard to use that I'm bringing the family back to macs just to stop having to do so much tech support.

fastball 6y ago

That sounds like a terrible idea. Why have a proprietary charge port if it can also charge with USB-C?

Brozilean 6y ago
Why would having multiple options be bad? It doesn't turn the usb c port into a useless port or anything?
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  > Why would having multiple options be bad? Because this is how you end up with a Homer Car of a device.
  - waheoo 6y ago
    That's a bit myopic. You can strike a balance. You're argument is the same thing that led to "we should get rid of headphone jacks because we have Bluetooth." Bluetooth is an option, its not the best option, but I wouldn't suggest removing Bluetooth because we have a headphone jack.
    - chrisseaton 6y ago
      > You're argument is the same thing that led to "we should get rid of headphone jacks because we have Bluetooth." I mean... yeah it's the same argument and I agree with both. When we got Bluetooth and decent ear pods... time to get rid of the headphone jack we don't want both, one is redundant. Simpler, cleaner, more uniform is better for these devices in my opinion.
      - projektfu 6y ago
        I'm just one data point but thanks to "courage" I hardly ever use headphones on my iPhone anymore. I never have the lightning earpods with me, and it can't use any of the random headphones I had stashed in various useful locations. Bluetooth headphones don't really fit into my life either. Thanks, Jony.
      - pushrax 6y ago
        Wireless headphones are an e-waste nightmare (in particular Airpods, designed to never be disassembled). When used with a mobile phone, their convenience is incredibly minor, and for me is more than offset by the need to keep them charged. I agree with getting rid of dying interfaces, but this is a case where it makes way more sense to keep options available. Almost everyone uses audio, and different people have different priorities. Waterproofing the jack is easy, and phones still have enough space for them. The only way I can interpret their decision to remove that jack was to incentivize wireless headphone sales, and perhaps appeal to the small ultra minimalist crowd.
        chrisseaton 6y ago
        Does the fact that there's a tiny and cheap dongle not make it all ok? You can keep using whatever devices you want if you've got some special use-case. Just pop the dongle in. For everyone else... we don't have to add it to the devices and we get a better device.
        pushrax 6y ago
        Apple's 3.5mm audio dongles are honestly very well engineered and they're selling them at an uncharacteristically reasonable markup. Great DAC implementation. I use mine all the time. I just don't believe most people think the device is better without the headphone jack. It's not a "special use-case". Deleting the jack has definitely driven some sales for wireless headphones to people who don't want to use the dongle, rather than a desire to get rid of the wire. For some reason it's very hard to find a cheap and solid way to charge via Lightning and use wired audio at the same time. My workaround is to charge after I'm done listening. Probably good for reducing phone use, but it can be annoying on occasion.
jahnu 6y ago
Because it's a magnetic port similar to magsafe.
toper-centage 6y ago
I had an XPS that had both and indeed it was useless to have a port for just charging. But if the charging port is also used for magsafe that makes it worth it.
- dschuler 6y ago
  The XPS 15 has a dedicated charging port that can draw much more power for the discrete GPU - up to 130W, but lets you charge it on the go with the USB-C port. You get full graphics performance with one but have the choice not to lug around a larger power brick on the go. Why would I want only one option when I can have both?
Haemm0r 6y ago
Maybe because of the power requirements?
FractalParadigm 6y ago
All kinds of reasons - my biggest one being why MagSafe was invented in the first place; I know my power cord is run across the living room due to a lack of power outlets in my 70-year-old apartment, and gets tripped over regularly. Not to mention a proprietary charger can free up a USB port for additional peripherals.
- waheoo 6y ago
  For those that don't get it, CPUs can only have so many USB-c ports wired up, it's all trade offs. Wiring a charger through different circuitry gives you an extra port. It's also easier to pump more wattage through and tends to be a bit more durable because thicker connectors can be used.
  - dmitriid 6y ago
    > For those that don't get it, CPUs can only have so many USB-c ports wired up I don't get it. Why? And how many is "so many"?
- kube-system 6y ago
  Tripping over a power cable was a problem created by a battery life that was shorter than a work day, IMO. I have been charging my M1 Mac at night, like my phone.
  - behnamoh 6y ago
    Wait a couple years and you can say goodbye to your MBA superb battery capacity. Mine is now at 70% after only 3 years and less than 400 cycles. For all the buzz it receives, Apple does not really provide the highest quality. I’ve concluded that: “Apple gives you awesome first impression and terrible relationship in the long term.”
    - angott 6y ago
      This is a problem with all laptop batteries, not just Apple batteries.
beowulfey 6y ago
It’s a bit redundant, but pretty far from being terrible. I have it on my laptop. Offhand it’s nice to leave the port free if you have a lot of usb needs. If anything it provides some flexibility. Can’t say it’s necessary but I certainly don’t mind it.
javajosh 6y ago
Yes, a terrible idea, like putting a motor on a sailboat! I mean, why would you ever need 2 methods of propulsion?! (Some boaters even bring oars and towline! Insane!)
- chris_wot 6y ago
  That analogy is silly. Two methods of propulsion is a good idea - when the wind is not blowing then use the engine. If the engine runs out of petroleum use the engine. Having a proprietary power interface and a USB C interface that does the same thing is ridiculous.
  - Retric 6y ago
    USB-C can’t charge nearly as quickly as a high power proprietary charger. In use USB-C needs to supply power for both charging and operating the laptop, so what might take 3 hours to charge with USB-C might take 20 minutes to charge with a dedicated connector. That’s not to say every laptop’s proprietary charger will supply noticeably more than 100W, but many examples exist.
    - oblio 6y ago
      I'd be surprised if a 13" Surface doesn't charge well enough at 100W, though.
      - Retric 6y ago
        13” Surface laptops had up to 90Wh of battery. Batteries get hot when charging due to inefficiency, meaning it takes more than 90Wh to charge a 90Wh battery. Subtract the power demand while in use and your well over an hour to fully charge. By comparison a quick charge to 80% in under 20 minutes while under full load should be possible assuming sufficient cooling and power. That’s not a huge deal most of the time, but it’s still plenty useful if your sharing a single outlet etc.
        6y ago
interestica 6y ago
The MS proprietary cable doesn't follow the USB-c spec and can therefore do a lot more (and I think it's still expandable). I think usbc is limited to 20V @ 5a?. And using USBC for charging takes up a data port. And many docks and stands make use of the MS port. And the MS cable is magnetic.
- fastball 6y ago
  Obviously you’d never just remove the power port and not replace it with anything, you’d replace the power port with another USB-C port.
SkyPuncher 6y ago
I have a Surface Go with a similar setup. The proprietary one is a magnet-style and rests flush against the device. USB-C is convenient to have, but the proprietary charger is much better if I'm going to be using the device while charging.
dangerbird2 6y ago
Except in practice, you get the worst of both worlds: a proprietary charger that looks like a USB-C. And even if it is proprietary, the Magsafe and similar ports are miles ahead of any USB-C charger in preventing tripping and IO port damage from dogs, children, and clumsy adults walking over the charger (granted, USB-C is a huge improvement over traditional round DC ports)

madhadron 6y ago

We went to Surfaces in my house for a while. They're by and large fine, but Windows 10 is sufficiently painful and hard to use that I'm bringing the family back to macs just to stop having to do so much tech support.