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And yet at the end of the day we don't hear about a mass exodus to matrix. We don't even know if the main @matrix.org server would have held and if federation

And yet at the end of the day we don't hear about a mass exodus to matrix. We don't even know if the main @matrix.org server would have held and if federation would have keep working. Not worth the cost? How much did whatsapp cost to Facebook? How much did whatsapp cost before that? Matrix is also running on free and so far we have hosted server offerings but no single individual account offer.

rglullis 6y ago
> we don't hear about mass exodus to matrix. This is argumentum ad populum. > main @matrix.org server There is no "main" server. matrix.org is the biggest one, but it is circunstancial. Matrix and Element do not want be the biggest instances or keep things under their control. I can bet that people working on Matrix would be thrilled with the idea of helping people create more instances, and even it would be beneficial for their business. > Matrix is also running on free and so far we have hosted server offerings but no single individual account offer. https://communick.com https://communick.com, there you go.
- faitswulff 6y ago
  Isn’t every startup, every service, every open source library an argumentum ad populum? Especially network goods like messaging services. I don’t doubt there’s a lot of value in federated decentralized services, but there’s also a lot of value in confusion/configuration-free usability. Thanks to comments endorsing matrix here, I will be installing it to try, but what Signal gets right is that it pretty much Just Works, and that’s the point GP is making. Frictionless UX coupled with cryptographic excellence make it compelling for lay people, and if it’s between Signal or nothing for the majority of nontechnical folk, then they’re better off using Signal.
  - rglullis 6y ago
    > there’s also a lot of value in confusion/configuration-free usability > it’s between Signal or nothing for the majority of nontechnical folk. This is a false dichotomy. Nothing about federated services that make it intrinsically less usable. > pretty much Just Works Until it stopped working. And it failed spectacularly. For everyone. I might have to repeat this until I go hoarse, but switching from one centralized service to another is not progress. It doesn't make us free. You are still at the mercy of an selected few to take things in the direction they want, everyone is still dependent on their success and the more people adopt it the more difficult it becomes to escape it case the leaders subvert their power to go against the will of the people.
    - faitswulff 6y ago
      > Nothing about federated services that make it intrinsically less usable. I didn't say that. I would say that Signal is more usable than Element, though. While I was commenting, I installed Element and the UX is just not as smooth as Signal - even the quick start instructions aren't as simple: "go to matrix site, click through to Element, read instructions to return to site to configure, install app, register username/pwd, forget about configuration step because it's apparently not necessary after all (?)" vs "go to signal.org, install app, verify phone number." It's not terrible for technically capable folk, but the friction is why it's not as popular as Signal. And while argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, practically speaking it is a boon to be popular in most things. Judging by your last paragraph, it comes down to a matter of values - is decentralization important to you? Then hands down, Signal will lose. But for a large number of people who don't care about decentralization, they will do what's popular and easy. OWS, I presume, wants to make sure the easiest, most popular solution is also secure.
    - johnchristopher 6y ago
      > Until it stopped working. And it failed spectacularly. For everyone. The outage wasn't global and didn't impact everyone ? It kept working for me and others in my contact list but some couldn't send messages. Also, if @matrix.org fails or @something fails then it impact users who wants to interact with both those addresses. So in the end it's not that much different for users. I think you comment about the will of the people is a bit off the rails. If anything the whatsapp exodus shows it's not true since we are seeing people moving from whatsapp to signal. When I run my own matrix instance I am still dependent on the matrix guys and what they want to do with the protocol and the de facto only matrix server's code. I can't fix anything with my instance but basic proxy/ssl/dns errors. I can't get the ship to stir in any directions. There are no matrix board where I could voice my concerns about stickers or the default colourscheme. Just like Signal.
      - rglullis 6y ago
        Your argument smells of the "I can't code or don't know Linux, so there is no benefit for me in adopting free software" BS excuse given by those that are to comfortable with Windows/Mac and do not want to give up that away. I am not a "Matrix guy", don't work for Element or the foundation. Yet, I can provide Matrix hosting services for you. If you and more of my customers start asking for changes/improvements (customizations to the clients, better solutions for storage, different kinds of integrations, etc) I can go and develop the changes myself AND DEPLOY THEM on a server for you to use, without needing to ask permission from any of the Matrix devs or Element or the Foundation. Just a very, very real example: I started looking into how I could integrate Hub20 with a Matrix homeserver to allow people to send/receive payments by messaging. It's the kind of functionality that would be super interesting for some folks, it does not require change in functionality of the core protocol in any way and it is very aligned with the Hub20's principle of facilitating access to crypto for the masses that do not want to deal with the complexities of blockchain/wallet/etc. Such an integration will never happen on Signal. Signal being centralized, there is no separate instance that could try out this integration, or make it work only for the accounts that it can manage. Telegram is the same, WhatsApp is the same. Instead of looking simply what is given to you "for free" in the different offerings from the market, start looking at what we can build on them. Don't let your lack of imagination become everyone else's weight to carry. [0]: https:/docs.hub20.io
- johnchristopher 6y ago
  > There is no "main" server. matrix.org is the biggest one, but it is circunstancial. It's not circumstantial at all. You can't send off people to random server without telling them it might shut down because no one knows the owner or when he's going to stop paying for his experience. @matrix.org is the only place where I'd feel safe sending relatives if they want to onboard because it's the only place I know the matrix guys are going to keep running. Most posts I am seeing on HN these days stating registering a matrix account was easy did it on matrix.org. I believe they should charge a fee. To avoid the GMail effect that got everyone a free email but trapped them in the end. And no, you can't jump as easily from one @something to @somethingelse because you lose your message history and attachments (that's where the often cited mail analogy fails us: with email you can take your email with you when switching). If this chat history doesn't matter BUT you have to find a way to export your contacts then I don't see why it's better than Signal for regular joes. Two years ago I could run my own matrix instance on a small VPS. Now it requires too much resources, especially when it's federated. Also, the mail federation analogy falls short here because nothing prevents mail from circulating between @something and @somethingelse while matrix has it in its design to whitelist some federated servers. > https://communick.com https://communick.com, there you go. Not what I mean. I am not looking to forward this to people asking me "hey, how do I get on matrix ?" "here, set up or buy your own server". Where can I send them when all they want and need is a matrix address ? Where can they pay a small fee to keep their matrix address longterm without going through the hassle of maintaining/renting a server ? Matrix.org But we don't see a rush of new users on Matrix. I wish there were though but I am convinced Matrix and Signal don't address the needs of the same people. And that's certainly why every signal thread seem to attract matrix supporters and we get into that federated/centralized debate. Which has been beaten to death.
  - rglullis 6y ago
    > Where can I send them when all they want and need is a matrix address ? Where can they pay a small fee to keep their matrix address longterm without going through the hassle of maintaining/renting a server? Have you seen communick? It's exactly that: a service that provides managed accounts for federated services such as Matrix/Mastodon/XMPP for a small fee. No server setup required.

rglullis 6y ago

> we don't hear about mass exodus to matrix. This is argumentum ad populum. > main @matrix.org server There is no "main" server. matrix.org is the biggest one, but it is circunstancial. Matrix and Element do not want be the biggest instances or keep things under their control. I can bet that people working on Matrix would be thrilled with the idea of helping people create more instances, and even it would be beneficial for their business. > Matrix is also running on free and so far we have hosted server offerings but no single individual account offer. https://communick.com https://communick.com, there you go.

faitswulff 6y ago
Isn’t every startup, every service, every open source library an argumentum ad populum? Especially network goods like messaging services. I don’t doubt there’s a lot of value in federated decentralized services, but there’s also a lot of value in confusion/configuration-free usability. Thanks to comments endorsing matrix here, I will be installing it to try, but what Signal gets right is that it pretty much Just Works, and that’s the point GP is making. Frictionless UX coupled with cryptographic excellence make it compelling for lay people, and if it’s between Signal or nothing for the majority of nontechnical folk, then they’re better off using Signal.
- rglullis 6y ago
  > there’s also a lot of value in confusion/configuration-free usability > it’s between Signal or nothing for the majority of nontechnical folk. This is a false dichotomy. Nothing about federated services that make it intrinsically less usable. > pretty much Just Works Until it stopped working. And it failed spectacularly. For everyone. I might have to repeat this until I go hoarse, but switching from one centralized service to another is not progress. It doesn't make us free. You are still at the mercy of an selected few to take things in the direction they want, everyone is still dependent on their success and the more people adopt it the more difficult it becomes to escape it case the leaders subvert their power to go against the will of the people.
  - faitswulff 6y ago
    > Nothing about federated services that make it intrinsically less usable. I didn't say that. I would say that Signal is more usable than Element, though. While I was commenting, I installed Element and the UX is just not as smooth as Signal - even the quick start instructions aren't as simple: "go to matrix site, click through to Element, read instructions to return to site to configure, install app, register username/pwd, forget about configuration step because it's apparently not necessary after all (?)" vs "go to signal.org, install app, verify phone number." It's not terrible for technically capable folk, but the friction is why it's not as popular as Signal. And while argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, practically speaking it is a boon to be popular in most things. Judging by your last paragraph, it comes down to a matter of values - is decentralization important to you? Then hands down, Signal will lose. But for a large number of people who don't care about decentralization, they will do what's popular and easy. OWS, I presume, wants to make sure the easiest, most popular solution is also secure.
  - johnchristopher 6y ago
    > Until it stopped working. And it failed spectacularly. For everyone. The outage wasn't global and didn't impact everyone ? It kept working for me and others in my contact list but some couldn't send messages. Also, if @matrix.org fails or @something fails then it impact users who wants to interact with both those addresses. So in the end it's not that much different for users. I think you comment about the will of the people is a bit off the rails. If anything the whatsapp exodus shows it's not true since we are seeing people moving from whatsapp to signal. When I run my own matrix instance I am still dependent on the matrix guys and what they want to do with the protocol and the de facto only matrix server's code. I can't fix anything with my instance but basic proxy/ssl/dns errors. I can't get the ship to stir in any directions. There are no matrix board where I could voice my concerns about stickers or the default colourscheme. Just like Signal.
    - rglullis 6y ago
      Your argument smells of the "I can't code or don't know Linux, so there is no benefit for me in adopting free software" BS excuse given by those that are to comfortable with Windows/Mac and do not want to give up that away. I am not a "Matrix guy", don't work for Element or the foundation. Yet, I can provide Matrix hosting services for you. If you and more of my customers start asking for changes/improvements (customizations to the clients, better solutions for storage, different kinds of integrations, etc) I can go and develop the changes myself AND DEPLOY THEM on a server for you to use, without needing to ask permission from any of the Matrix devs or Element or the Foundation. Just a very, very real example: I started looking into how I could integrate Hub20 with a Matrix homeserver to allow people to send/receive payments by messaging. It's the kind of functionality that would be super interesting for some folks, it does not require change in functionality of the core protocol in any way and it is very aligned with the Hub20's principle of facilitating access to crypto for the masses that do not want to deal with the complexities of blockchain/wallet/etc. Such an integration will never happen on Signal. Signal being centralized, there is no separate instance that could try out this integration, or make it work only for the accounts that it can manage. Telegram is the same, WhatsApp is the same. Instead of looking simply what is given to you "for free" in the different offerings from the market, start looking at what we can build on them. Don't let your lack of imagination become everyone else's weight to carry. [0]: https:/docs.hub20.io
johnchristopher 6y ago
> There is no "main" server. matrix.org is the biggest one, but it is circunstancial. It's not circumstantial at all. You can't send off people to random server without telling them it might shut down because no one knows the owner or when he's going to stop paying for his experience. @matrix.org is the only place where I'd feel safe sending relatives if they want to onboard because it's the only place I know the matrix guys are going to keep running. Most posts I am seeing on HN these days stating registering a matrix account was easy did it on matrix.org. I believe they should charge a fee. To avoid the GMail effect that got everyone a free email but trapped them in the end. And no, you can't jump as easily from one @something to @somethingelse because you lose your message history and attachments (that's where the often cited mail analogy fails us: with email you can take your email with you when switching). If this chat history doesn't matter BUT you have to find a way to export your contacts then I don't see why it's better than Signal for regular joes. Two years ago I could run my own matrix instance on a small VPS. Now it requires too much resources, especially when it's federated. Also, the mail federation analogy falls short here because nothing prevents mail from circulating between @something and @somethingelse while matrix has it in its design to whitelist some federated servers. > https://communick.com https://communick.com, there you go. Not what I mean. I am not looking to forward this to people asking me "hey, how do I get on matrix ?" "here, set up or buy your own server". Where can I send them when all they want and need is a matrix address ? Where can they pay a small fee to keep their matrix address longterm without going through the hassle of maintaining/renting a server ? Matrix.org But we don't see a rush of new users on Matrix. I wish there were though but I am convinced Matrix and Signal don't address the needs of the same people. And that's certainly why every signal thread seem to attract matrix supporters and we get into that federated/centralized debate. Which has been beaten to death.
- rglullis 6y ago
  > Where can I send them when all they want and need is a matrix address ? Where can they pay a small fee to keep their matrix address longterm without going through the hassle of maintaining/renting a server? Have you seen communick? It's exactly that: a service that provides managed accounts for federated services such as Matrix/Mastodon/XMPP for a small fee. No server setup required.