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Honestly, the main lesson I wish developers (and especially Moxie) get to learn is the one that teaches them that centralized services are fragile, bound to fai

Honestly, the main lesson I wish developers (and especially Moxie) get to learn is the one that teaches them that centralized services are fragile, bound to fail and simply not worth the cost.

lxgr 6y ago
Centralized in architectural or administrative terms?
- rglullis 6y ago
  Both.
johnchristopher 6y ago
And yet at the end of the day we don't hear about a mass exodus to matrix. We don't even know if the main @matrix.org server would have held and if federation would have keep working. Not worth the cost? How much did whatsapp cost to Facebook? How much did whatsapp cost before that? Matrix is also running on free and so far we have hosted server offerings but no single individual account offer.
- rglullis 6y ago
  > we don't hear about mass exodus to matrix. This is argumentum ad populum. > main @matrix.org server There is no "main" server. matrix.org is the biggest one, but it is circunstancial. Matrix and Element do not want be the biggest instances or keep things under their control. I can bet that people working on Matrix would be thrilled with the idea of helping people create more instances, and even it would be beneficial for their business. > Matrix is also running on free and so far we have hosted server offerings but no single individual account offer. https://communick.com https://communick.com, there you go.
  - faitswulff 6y ago
    Isn’t every startup, every service, every open source library an argumentum ad populum? Especially network goods like messaging services. I don’t doubt there’s a lot of value in federated decentralized services, but there’s also a lot of value in confusion/configuration-free usability. Thanks to comments endorsing matrix here, I will be installing it to try, but what Signal gets right is that it pretty much Just Works, and that’s the point GP is making. Frictionless UX coupled with cryptographic excellence make it compelling for lay people, and if it’s between Signal or nothing for the majority of nontechnical folk, then they’re better off using Signal.
    - rglullis 6y ago
      > there’s also a lot of value in confusion/configuration-free usability > it’s between Signal or nothing for the majority of nontechnical folk. This is a false dichotomy. Nothing about federated services that make it intrinsically less usable. > pretty much Just Works Until it stopped working. And it failed spectacularly. For everyone. I might have to repeat this until I go hoarse, but switching from one centralized service to another is not progress. It doesn't make us free. You are still at the mercy of an selected few to take things in the direction they want, everyone is still dependent on their success and the more people adopt it the more difficult it becomes to escape it case the leaders subvert their power to go against the will of the people.
      - faitswulff 6y ago
        > Nothing about federated services that make it intrinsically less usable. I didn't say that. I would say that Signal is more usable than Element, though. While I was commenting, I installed Element and the UX is just not as smooth as Signal - even the quick start instructions aren't as simple: "go to matrix site, click through to Element, read instructions to return to site to configure, install app, register username/pwd, forget about configuration step because it's apparently not necessary after all (?)" vs "go to signal.org, install app, verify phone number." It's not terrible for technically capable folk, but the friction is why it's not as popular as Signal. And while argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, practically speaking it is a boon to be popular in most things. Judging by your last paragraph, it comes down to a matter of values - is decentralization important to you? Then hands down, Signal will lose. But for a large number of people who don't care about decentralization, they will do what's popular and easy. OWS, I presume, wants to make sure the easiest, most popular solution is also secure.
  - johnchristopher 6y ago
    > There is no "main" server. matrix.org is the biggest one, but it is circunstancial. It's not circumstantial at all. You can't send off people to random server without telling them it might shut down because no one knows the owner or when he's going to stop paying for his experience. @matrix.org is the only place where I'd feel safe sending relatives if they want to onboard because it's the only place I know the matrix guys are going to keep running. Most posts I am seeing on HN these days stating registering a matrix account was easy did it on matrix.org. I believe they should charge a fee. To avoid the GMail effect that got everyone a free email but trapped them in the end. And no, you can't jump as easily from one @something to @somethingelse because you lose your message history and attachments (that's where the often cited mail analogy fails us: with email you can take your email with you when switching). If this chat history doesn't matter BUT you have to find a way to export your contacts then I don't see why it's better than Signal for regular joes. Two years ago I could run my own matrix instance on a small VPS. Now it requires too much resources, especially when it's federated. Also, the mail federation analogy falls short here because nothing prevents mail from circulating between @something and @somethingelse while matrix has it in its design to whitelist some federated servers. > https://communick.com https://communick.com, there you go. Not what I mean. I am not looking to forward this to people asking me "hey, how do I get on matrix ?" "here, set up or buy your own server". Where can I send them when all they want and need is a matrix address ? Where can they pay a small fee to keep their matrix address longterm without going through the hassle of maintaining/renting a server ? Matrix.org But we don't see a rush of new users on Matrix. I wish there were though but I am convinced Matrix and Signal don't address the needs of the same people. And that's certainly why every signal thread seem to attract matrix supporters and we get into that federated/centralized debate. Which has been beaten to death.
    - rglullis 6y ago
      > Where can I send them when all they want and need is a matrix address ? Where can they pay a small fee to keep their matrix address longterm without going through the hassle of maintaining/renting a server? Have you seen communick? It's exactly that: a service that provides managed accounts for federated services such as Matrix/Mastodon/XMPP for a small fee. No server setup required.
rimliu 6y ago
And also happen to be the ones people actually use.
- rglullis 6y ago
  You use email. You use the internet. You use phone networks.
  - zamadatix 6y ago
    And what % of users are actually advertising their domain, running BGP, and operating their PBX? Now what % of users go through Gmail, Lumen, or AT&T and what happens when one of those go down? Which of these don't have centralized administration/regulation bodies? Which of these will a user say they haven't had hours of downtime with in the last year? Even in the case you have a very well federated system with users very dispersed and the federation had 100% uptime and no bugs... how does it affect uptime for users? A central server going down 1% of the time for all users is the same as 1,000,000 decentralized servers being down 1% of the time for their 1/1,000,000 users. Nobody cares others can use the service during an outage they care they can use the service. Federation capability at the protocol (even if it's not used in a truly federated way) provides a lot of great features, uptime for users isn't really one though. The most relevant is probably when Signal shuts down intentionally (tomorrow or 1,000 years from now, doesn't matter) you can't just migrate to a different Signal server without all of your contacts moving to the same one. This is akin to taking your /24 with you to your new ISP, porting your phone number to a new phone provider, or taking your custom domain email from Gmail to a different host and the ability to do that on those federated systems is probably why they remain in use today.
    - rglullis 6y ago
      What exactly are you trying to argue here? "Federated systems fail as well, so we might stick with centralized ones for efficiency". Is that it? If so, may I suggest you read Antifragile?
      - 6y ago

Honestly, the main lesson I wish developers (and especially Moxie) get to learn is the one that teaches them that centralized services are fragile, bound to fail and simply not worth the cost.

lxgr 6y ago

Centralized in architectural or administrative terms?

rglullis 6y ago
Both.

johnchristopher 6y ago

And yet at the end of the day we don't hear about a mass exodus to matrix. We don't even know if the main @matrix.org server would have held and if federation would have keep working. Not worth the cost? How much did whatsapp cost to Facebook? How much did whatsapp cost before that? Matrix is also running on free and so far we have hosted server offerings but no single individual account offer.

rglullis 6y ago
> we don't hear about mass exodus to matrix. This is argumentum ad populum. > main @matrix.org server There is no "main" server. matrix.org is the biggest one, but it is circunstancial. Matrix and Element do not want be the biggest instances or keep things under their control. I can bet that people working on Matrix would be thrilled with the idea of helping people create more instances, and even it would be beneficial for their business. > Matrix is also running on free and so far we have hosted server offerings but no single individual account offer. https://communick.com https://communick.com, there you go.
- faitswulff 6y ago
  Isn’t every startup, every service, every open source library an argumentum ad populum? Especially network goods like messaging services. I don’t doubt there’s a lot of value in federated decentralized services, but there’s also a lot of value in confusion/configuration-free usability. Thanks to comments endorsing matrix here, I will be installing it to try, but what Signal gets right is that it pretty much Just Works, and that’s the point GP is making. Frictionless UX coupled with cryptographic excellence make it compelling for lay people, and if it’s between Signal or nothing for the majority of nontechnical folk, then they’re better off using Signal.
  - rglullis 6y ago
    > there’s also a lot of value in confusion/configuration-free usability > it’s between Signal or nothing for the majority of nontechnical folk. This is a false dichotomy. Nothing about federated services that make it intrinsically less usable. > pretty much Just Works Until it stopped working. And it failed spectacularly. For everyone. I might have to repeat this until I go hoarse, but switching from one centralized service to another is not progress. It doesn't make us free. You are still at the mercy of an selected few to take things in the direction they want, everyone is still dependent on their success and the more people adopt it the more difficult it becomes to escape it case the leaders subvert their power to go against the will of the people.
    - faitswulff 6y ago
      > Nothing about federated services that make it intrinsically less usable. I didn't say that. I would say that Signal is more usable than Element, though. While I was commenting, I installed Element and the UX is just not as smooth as Signal - even the quick start instructions aren't as simple: "go to matrix site, click through to Element, read instructions to return to site to configure, install app, register username/pwd, forget about configuration step because it's apparently not necessary after all (?)" vs "go to signal.org, install app, verify phone number." It's not terrible for technically capable folk, but the friction is why it's not as popular as Signal. And while argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy, practically speaking it is a boon to be popular in most things. Judging by your last paragraph, it comes down to a matter of values - is decentralization important to you? Then hands down, Signal will lose. But for a large number of people who don't care about decentralization, they will do what's popular and easy. OWS, I presume, wants to make sure the easiest, most popular solution is also secure.
- johnchristopher 6y ago
  > There is no "main" server. matrix.org is the biggest one, but it is circunstancial. It's not circumstantial at all. You can't send off people to random server without telling them it might shut down because no one knows the owner or when he's going to stop paying for his experience. @matrix.org is the only place where I'd feel safe sending relatives if they want to onboard because it's the only place I know the matrix guys are going to keep running. Most posts I am seeing on HN these days stating registering a matrix account was easy did it on matrix.org. I believe they should charge a fee. To avoid the GMail effect that got everyone a free email but trapped them in the end. And no, you can't jump as easily from one @something to @somethingelse because you lose your message history and attachments (that's where the often cited mail analogy fails us: with email you can take your email with you when switching). If this chat history doesn't matter BUT you have to find a way to export your contacts then I don't see why it's better than Signal for regular joes. Two years ago I could run my own matrix instance on a small VPS. Now it requires too much resources, especially when it's federated. Also, the mail federation analogy falls short here because nothing prevents mail from circulating between @something and @somethingelse while matrix has it in its design to whitelist some federated servers. > https://communick.com https://communick.com, there you go. Not what I mean. I am not looking to forward this to people asking me "hey, how do I get on matrix ?" "here, set up or buy your own server". Where can I send them when all they want and need is a matrix address ? Where can they pay a small fee to keep their matrix address longterm without going through the hassle of maintaining/renting a server ? Matrix.org But we don't see a rush of new users on Matrix. I wish there were though but I am convinced Matrix and Signal don't address the needs of the same people. And that's certainly why every signal thread seem to attract matrix supporters and we get into that federated/centralized debate. Which has been beaten to death.
  - rglullis 6y ago
    > Where can I send them when all they want and need is a matrix address ? Where can they pay a small fee to keep their matrix address longterm without going through the hassle of maintaining/renting a server? Have you seen communick? It's exactly that: a service that provides managed accounts for federated services such as Matrix/Mastodon/XMPP for a small fee. No server setup required.

rimliu 6y ago

And also happen to be the ones people actually use.

rglullis 6y ago
You use email. You use the internet. You use phone networks.
- zamadatix 6y ago
  And what % of users are actually advertising their domain, running BGP, and operating their PBX? Now what % of users go through Gmail, Lumen, or AT&T and what happens when one of those go down? Which of these don't have centralized administration/regulation bodies? Which of these will a user say they haven't had hours of downtime with in the last year? Even in the case you have a very well federated system with users very dispersed and the federation had 100% uptime and no bugs... how does it affect uptime for users? A central server going down 1% of the time for all users is the same as 1,000,000 decentralized servers being down 1% of the time for their 1/1,000,000 users. Nobody cares others can use the service during an outage they care they can use the service. Federation capability at the protocol (even if it's not used in a truly federated way) provides a lot of great features, uptime for users isn't really one though. The most relevant is probably when Signal shuts down intentionally (tomorrow or 1,000 years from now, doesn't matter) you can't just migrate to a different Signal server without all of your contacts moving to the same one. This is akin to taking your /24 with you to your new ISP, porting your phone number to a new phone provider, or taking your custom domain email from Gmail to a different host and the ability to do that on those federated systems is probably why they remain in use today.
  - rglullis 6y ago
    What exactly are you trying to argue here? "Federated systems fail as well, so we might stick with centralized ones for efficiency". Is that it? If so, may I suggest you read Antifragile?
    - 6y ago