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I mean this question sincerely, as I'm a US Government employee currently and former Intelligence Officer: What is it going to take to restore, or maybe even j

I mean this question sincerely, as I'm a US Government employee currently and former Intelligence Officer: What is it going to take to restore, or maybe even just establish, trust in US Government institutions by people in the US?

Goofdup 6y ago
A free Snowden would be a good start
- Craighead 6y ago
  Snowden, the Russian agent who under a self proclaimed psychotic breakdown after breaking into systems he didn't have authorization to, traded American and private company secrets for safe harbor to the country who has the least morals in terms of cyber security and hybrid warfare capabilities, because he thought he was about to be assassinated?
- cjfd 6y ago
  Not just freeing. Give the guy some kind of lofty award and have the next US president give it to him together with a speech explaining how great the things are that he did.
  - gonzo41 6y ago
    Actually, I don't think Snowden did that much. He exposed crimes, sure. But they still happen in darkness now. So there's this drifting time element to his story. It's in the past. And the systems that are in place for accountability didn't result in any accountability. Rather things just went dark. Maybe have a ponder about, if Snowden didn't happen, what would be different about today? Upside from Snowden, the intel community got better controls around administrator access on their networks.
    - boomboomsubban 6y ago
      The point of Snowden's actions was to reveal what our government is doing in an attempt to force them to change it. The immediate branding him as a traitor and foreign agent both allows the government to continue the illicit activity and discourages others from revealing damaging material. By pardoning him and then rewarding him for his actions, it at least signals that government organizations shouldn't engage in similar activities and will lead to other people stepping forward if they do.
      - gonzo41 6y ago
        >it at least signals that government organizations shouldn't engage in similar activities. This is the worst way for the executive to send signals to the organizations it controls. It also assumes that the alphabet agencies were building these systems without government knowledge. But, everyone knew. They got the money for the project from the government. Sending a signal would be better achieved via legislation. Snowden should have leaked to members of congress. I strongly doubt Snowden will ever get a pardon. It would be rewarding people declassifying large government programs based on their feelings about those programs.
        boomboomsubban 6y ago
        >But, everyone knew. So why would Clapper lie about it to Wyden? Additionally, what good would leaking it to Congress do then? As a whole, I agree that the pardon alone would be a poor signal. Ideally it would be accompanied by additional changes. You argued that Snowden didn't accomplish much though and part of the reason is the hostile reaction from the government. >It would be rewarding people declassifying large government programs based on their feelings about those programs If a program is classified, it shouldn't be in a moral gray area. The public should be aware if we're committing unethical acts.
        gonzo41 6y ago
        I agree with you but I think Snowden could have gone a different route. Probably to the same effect, with less damage to his own life. Most things that are classified are in the morale grey area.
AshWolfy 6y ago
Strict civilian oversight, transparency, protections for whistleblowers, and culling much of the current leadership
dsr_ 6y ago
Prosecution of government employees and officeholders. You don't gain trust without a reason to trust you. There is no magic reset button. After COINTELPRO and Iran/Contra and Snowden, the USA Intel establishment has a solid record of attacking their own citizens and behaving as though laws don't apply to them and there is no oversight. Valerie Plame? And then there's the last five years, starting with the Clinton email server. The Intel community can't prevent that, and then the FBI goes political at the end of election season? There is no trust of intelligence agencies because they have proven they deserve none.
- uncletammy 6y ago
  I logged in just to upvote you. This! 100%
KirillPanov 6y ago
Put Edward Snowden in charge of NSA. I know that sounds ridiculous, but you asked. Human civilization has a long history of people who were exiled for their priciples returning as great leaders. It's a hard-to-fake signal.
SkyMarshal 6y ago
In addition to what others have already said, actually preventing major breaches like the recent Solarwinds hack. Eg, besides the tinfoil hat stuff, just getting the basics right. Personally I'd like to see the entire US govt IT infrastructure rebuilt around DARPA's HACMS project [1]. Get rid of Windows, base it all on SEL4 Linux or similar, rebuild the apps (everything in userspace), etc. That would significantly reduce the attack surface. Huge project obviously, but one can wish. [1]:https://www.darpa.mil/program/high-assurance-cyber-military-systems https://www.darpa.mil/program/high-assurance-cyber-military-...
- ampdepolymerase 6y ago
  You probably don't need HACM. Microsoft Research has produce quite a number of software and compilers for producing provably secure low level code and drivers.
  - dylan604 6y ago
    You missed the part about basing everything on SELinux4. That would mean drop Windows. I'm all onboard for that.
  - SkyMarshal 6y ago
    When are we getting that in Windows? It needs to start with a formally verified OS (and firmware), then build a provably-correct protocol/driver/app/etc stack on top. MS was working on Singularity [1] a while back, but its webpage speaks of it in past tense, so it doesn't appear to be an ongoing project. [1]:https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/singularity/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/singularity...
    - ampdepolymerase 6y ago
      Microsoft, and more importantly Microsoft Research, have many, many projects tackling this. Off the top of my head: the P programming language, F*, Dafny, and a bunch of others (I think the last two are part of something called Project Everest). Microsoft Research is one of the biggest players in this field. A lot of their efforts span multiple departments so you will have to search around.
nelson_muntz69 6y ago
I’m 45 years old, and for essentially my entire life, the US government has been playing the role of villain in popular culture. How do you reverse that? Its deeply embedded in my mind at this point, and has been backed up by reality. A good start would be a return to representative government. The parties do not, IMO, represent the US citizens well, if at all.
DangitBobby 6y ago
Decades of transparency and trustworthiness.
0xy 6y ago
James Clapper is still a free man despite lying to Congress and the American public, so I don't see why anyone should trust a word anyone says from any US intelligence agency.
- dylan604 6y ago
  Well, Clapper did come back for another visit with a statement that could best be summarized as "Oops, my bad". So, to Congress, that's apparently enough. Congress basically has battered spouse syndrome*. They desperately want to believe things will change, but it never does. Instead, time after time, intelligence communities run roughshod over whatever civilian oversight they subject themselves. *I absolutely am not trying to belittle abuse by using that phrase.
dylan604 6y ago
Your successes are secret, your failures are known. That's your industry's catch phrase. Here's a list of things I can think of: 1. If you're the CIA/NSA, stop spying on American citizens. 2. See #1 3. Stop NSLs. If you want data, get a valid warrant visible to the public. Allow companies to inform their users/customers that their entire platform is vulnerable. 4. Subject yourself to non-govt over view. 5. Stop hoarding 0-days, and actively work with vendors to fix vulns. Don't know how to fix it, but until you're no longer in the news for screwing up, this is where we are. Your internal documents show that all of that data slurping has not led to significant positive results. Why spend the money on it then? Why erode the trust that you want? You don't want to tip off the advesary, but your own citizen's rights are much more valuable than what little information you are getting.
- dylan604 6y ago
  Want to add one more thing: 6. Whenever coming up with a new spying/data collection scheme, ask yourself "in the light of public outcry in the past, how would this new thing be perceived?" Be honest about it, and not hand wavy "the public will be okay as long as we catch bad guys".
darksaints 6y ago
For odd family reasons I have a lot of acquantances in SOCOM and intelligence orgs, and I've been around these sorts of people long enough to know that the vast majority of them are well meaning and sincerely eager to do the right thing. But see, that's the problem: they're all employees, and they all report up the chain to an unelected appointee, far removed from any voting-based accountability. I don't think the trust will ever come back because I don't believe the government has the right incentives in place to restore trust. It only gets worse from here. And certainly nothing I've learned about them in the last 10 years would convince me otherwise.
- Daho0n 6y ago
  Nuremberg set the principle of "just following orders" isn't an excuse. Employed or employee; both are guilty.
  - darksaints 6y ago
    Sure they set a precedent for war crimes. Spying on your own citizens? It's not even apparent that that is a crime, just abhorrent.
rapjr9 6y ago
It is the nature of trust that it is easily lost and difficult to regain. Basically trust is based on experience over the long term. If there are good experiences for a long time trust grows. Any breach of trust resets the trust clock to zero (or even to a negative value).
ByteJockey 6y ago
A number of years of good behavior. The numbers going to be a bit different for everyone, but as the years go on trust will be built with a larger and larger portion of the public.
Daho0n 6y ago
Host all their secrets and vulnerabilities on their site and shut down everything else. Prosecute everyone involved. Follow Nuremberg principles set by the US itself (IE. "I followed orders" is not an excuse.)

Goofdup 6y ago

A free Snowden would be a good start

Craighead 6y ago
Snowden, the Russian agent who under a self proclaimed psychotic breakdown after breaking into systems he didn't have authorization to, traded American and private company secrets for safe harbor to the country who has the least morals in terms of cyber security and hybrid warfare capabilities, because he thought he was about to be assassinated?
cjfd 6y ago
Not just freeing. Give the guy some kind of lofty award and have the next US president give it to him together with a speech explaining how great the things are that he did.
- gonzo41 6y ago
  Actually, I don't think Snowden did that much. He exposed crimes, sure. But they still happen in darkness now. So there's this drifting time element to his story. It's in the past. And the systems that are in place for accountability didn't result in any accountability. Rather things just went dark. Maybe have a ponder about, if Snowden didn't happen, what would be different about today? Upside from Snowden, the intel community got better controls around administrator access on their networks.
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    The point of Snowden's actions was to reveal what our government is doing in an attempt to force them to change it. The immediate branding him as a traitor and foreign agent both allows the government to continue the illicit activity and discourages others from revealing damaging material. By pardoning him and then rewarding him for his actions, it at least signals that government organizations shouldn't engage in similar activities and will lead to other people stepping forward if they do.
    - gonzo41 6y ago
      >it at least signals that government organizations shouldn't engage in similar activities. This is the worst way for the executive to send signals to the organizations it controls. It also assumes that the alphabet agencies were building these systems without government knowledge. But, everyone knew. They got the money for the project from the government. Sending a signal would be better achieved via legislation. Snowden should have leaked to members of congress. I strongly doubt Snowden will ever get a pardon. It would be rewarding people declassifying large government programs based on their feelings about those programs.
      - boomboomsubban 6y ago
        >But, everyone knew. So why would Clapper lie about it to Wyden? Additionally, what good would leaking it to Congress do then? As a whole, I agree that the pardon alone would be a poor signal. Ideally it would be accompanied by additional changes. You argued that Snowden didn't accomplish much though and part of the reason is the hostile reaction from the government. >It would be rewarding people declassifying large government programs based on their feelings about those programs If a program is classified, it shouldn't be in a moral gray area. The public should be aware if we're committing unethical acts.
        gonzo41 6y ago
        I agree with you but I think Snowden could have gone a different route. Probably to the same effect, with less damage to his own life. Most things that are classified are in the morale grey area.

AshWolfy 6y ago

Strict civilian oversight, transparency, protections for whistleblowers, and culling much of the current leadership

dsr_ 6y ago

Prosecution of government employees and officeholders. You don't gain trust without a reason to trust you. There is no magic reset button. After COINTELPRO and Iran/Contra and Snowden, the USA Intel establishment has a solid record of attacking their own citizens and behaving as though laws don't apply to them and there is no oversight. Valerie Plame? And then there's the last five years, starting with the Clinton email server. The Intel community can't prevent that, and then the FBI goes political at the end of election season? There is no trust of intelligence agencies because they have proven they deserve none.

uncletammy 6y ago
I logged in just to upvote you. This! 100%

KirillPanov 6y ago

Put Edward Snowden in charge of NSA. I know that sounds ridiculous, but you asked. Human civilization has a long history of people who were exiled for their priciples returning as great leaders. It's a hard-to-fake signal.

SkyMarshal 6y ago

In addition to what others have already said, actually preventing major breaches like the recent Solarwinds hack. Eg, besides the tinfoil hat stuff, just getting the basics right. Personally I'd like to see the entire US govt IT infrastructure rebuilt around DARPA's HACMS project [1]. Get rid of Windows, base it all on SEL4 Linux or similar, rebuild the apps (everything in userspace), etc. That would significantly reduce the attack surface. Huge project obviously, but one can wish. [1]:https://www.darpa.mil/program/high-assurance-cyber-military-systems https://www.darpa.mil/program/high-assurance-cyber-military-...

ampdepolymerase 6y ago
You probably don't need HACM. Microsoft Research has produce quite a number of software and compilers for producing provably secure low level code and drivers.
- dylan604 6y ago
  You missed the part about basing everything on SELinux4. That would mean drop Windows. I'm all onboard for that.
- SkyMarshal 6y ago
  When are we getting that in Windows? It needs to start with a formally verified OS (and firmware), then build a provably-correct protocol/driver/app/etc stack on top. MS was working on Singularity [1] a while back, but its webpage speaks of it in past tense, so it doesn't appear to be an ongoing project. [1]:https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/singularity/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/singularity...
  - ampdepolymerase 6y ago
    Microsoft, and more importantly Microsoft Research, have many, many projects tackling this. Off the top of my head: the P programming language, F*, Dafny, and a bunch of others (I think the last two are part of something called Project Everest). Microsoft Research is one of the biggest players in this field. A lot of their efforts span multiple departments so you will have to search around.

nelson_muntz69 6y ago

I’m 45 years old, and for essentially my entire life, the US government has been playing the role of villain in popular culture. How do you reverse that? Its deeply embedded in my mind at this point, and has been backed up by reality. A good start would be a return to representative government. The parties do not, IMO, represent the US citizens well, if at all.

DangitBobby 6y ago

Decades of transparency and trustworthiness.

0xy 6y ago

James Clapper is still a free man despite lying to Congress and the American public, so I don't see why anyone should trust a word anyone says from any US intelligence agency.

dylan604 6y ago
Well, Clapper did come back for another visit with a statement that could best be summarized as "Oops, my bad". So, to Congress, that's apparently enough. Congress basically has battered spouse syndrome*. They desperately want to believe things will change, but it never does. Instead, time after time, intelligence communities run roughshod over whatever civilian oversight they subject themselves. *I absolutely am not trying to belittle abuse by using that phrase.

dylan604 6y ago

Your successes are secret, your failures are known. That's your industry's catch phrase. Here's a list of things I can think of: 1. If you're the CIA/NSA, stop spying on American citizens. 2. See #1 3. Stop NSLs. If you want data, get a valid warrant visible to the public. Allow companies to inform their users/customers that their entire platform is vulnerable. 4. Subject yourself to non-govt over view. 5. Stop hoarding 0-days, and actively work with vendors to fix vulns. Don't know how to fix it, but until you're no longer in the news for screwing up, this is where we are. Your internal documents show that all of that data slurping has not led to significant positive results. Why spend the money on it then? Why erode the trust that you want? You don't want to tip off the advesary, but your own citizen's rights are much more valuable than what little information you are getting.

dylan604 6y ago
Want to add one more thing: 6. Whenever coming up with a new spying/data collection scheme, ask yourself "in the light of public outcry in the past, how would this new thing be perceived?" Be honest about it, and not hand wavy "the public will be okay as long as we catch bad guys".

darksaints 6y ago

For odd family reasons I have a lot of acquantances in SOCOM and intelligence orgs, and I've been around these sorts of people long enough to know that the vast majority of them are well meaning and sincerely eager to do the right thing. But see, that's the problem: they're all employees, and they all report up the chain to an unelected appointee, far removed from any voting-based accountability. I don't think the trust will ever come back because I don't believe the government has the right incentives in place to restore trust. It only gets worse from here. And certainly nothing I've learned about them in the last 10 years would convince me otherwise.

Daho0n 6y ago
Nuremberg set the principle of "just following orders" isn't an excuse. Employed or employee; both are guilty.
- darksaints 6y ago
  Sure they set a precedent for war crimes. Spying on your own citizens? It's not even apparent that that is a crime, just abhorrent.

rapjr9 6y ago

It is the nature of trust that it is easily lost and difficult to regain. Basically trust is based on experience over the long term. If there are good experiences for a long time trust grows. Any breach of trust resets the trust clock to zero (or even to a negative value).

ByteJockey 6y ago

A number of years of good behavior. The numbers going to be a bit different for everyone, but as the years go on trust will be built with a larger and larger portion of the public.

Daho0n 6y ago

Host all their secrets and vulnerabilities on their site and shut down everything else. Prosecute everyone involved. Follow Nuremberg principles set by the US itself (IE. "I followed orders" is not an excuse.)