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We rarely get to see an app have to grow suddenly like that. And with Signal being open source, it must be very educational to follow. Has anyone found a publi

We rarely get to see an app have to grow suddenly like that. And with Signal being open source, it must be very educational to follow. Has anyone found a publication around what they had to do on the technical side (code)? Edit: Their server's repo hasn't been updated since April 2020. Why? https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server

iKlsR 6y ago
Earlier today https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25803010 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25803010
zie 6y ago
The problem is 2 fold. 1) a bahillion new signups, so they just needed to deploy a bajillion more instances of the server. 2) The clients basically DDoS'ing their servers. If you look at the android client source, you can see all the commits they put in are about handling errors properly when the server(s) get overloaded.
- divbzero 6y ago
  Anyone know if these commits are already in App Store and Google Play? I looked for a Signal update on iOS just now and did not see one.
  - decrypt 6y ago
    From what I understand, this affects only Android devices, thus the Android 5.2.1 rollout. None for iOS.
    - minot 6y ago
      Not that I speak for the project but this isn’t privileged information anyways: If you have TestFlight, you will see there have been several updates pushed to TestFlight over the last few days.
Arathorn 6y ago
The lack of development-in-the-open on Signal-Server is a little concerning, in terms of not giving visibility on what's at least theoretically running serverside. If you compare it with Matrix, the last commits to Synapse were ~32 hours ago, Dendrite was ~31 hours ago, and Conduit was 3 hours ago - so you can keep up with where development is at, and of course see what is meant to be running in production (and run it yourself if you're able to). My assumption is that what's happening is that Signal-Server is going through contortions to switch everything to UUIDs, in order to avoid hardcoding phone numbers everywhere as identifiers, and this work is being done on a private branch. Meanwhile, there's presumably a private branch for the current live production deployment too. (For Matrix, we maintain a separate branch for the live matrix.org homeserver instance, to allow for hotfixes etc - although it's public, at https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/tree/matrix-org-hotfixes https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/tree/matrix-org-hotfix...)
- vlmutolo 6y ago
  Very much agree with everything you just said. Quick question, semi-relevant: does the matrix.org homeserver have open monitoring? Is there someone I can look to see server load? I’m curious whether Matrix saw a similar influx of users this past week.
- herodoturtle 6y ago
  > and of course see what is meant to be running in production (and run it yourself if you're able to). This comment of yours is only the second time I'm hearing of Matrix (the first time was several days ago, in a bunch of comments on an ASK HN discussing the WA policy announcement). And because of your comment (and the implication that Matrix is something one can run independently in production) I am now perusing matrix.org - thanks for sharing. Also I enjoyed your insight with respect to the Signal dev team and what they're possibly currently frantically busy with. Mind if I ask you, what your thoughts are on the Signal project long-term?
  - bilal4hmed 6y ago
    Read this https://matrix.org/blog/2020/01/02/on-privacy-versus-freedom https://matrix.org/blog/2020/01/02/on-privacy-versus-freedom
j4ah4n 6y ago
I would hope it’s due to infrastructure changes required to keep the lights on, not code changes. Concerning at first glance, but less so if I think about the problems they’re likely facing with regards to scaling.
neves 6y ago
Did it scale more than Pokemon Go? https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/01/what-pokemon-go-and-other-games-can-teach-developers-about-scaling-up-in-the-cloud/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/01/what-...
- oars 6y ago
  Great read, thanks for sharing. This is a great case for GCP.
- deadbunny 6y ago
  Does it matter? They went from ~10MM users to >50MM users very quickly, that's a pain for anyone.
raobit 6y ago
Isn't Session good compared to Signal?
rglullis 6y ago
Honestly, the main lesson I wish developers (and especially Moxie) get to learn is the one that teaches them that centralized services are fragile, bound to fail and simply not worth the cost.
- lxgr 6y ago
  Centralized in architectural or administrative terms?
  - rglullis 6y ago
    Both.
- johnchristopher 6y ago
  And yet at the end of the day we don't hear about a mass exodus to matrix. We don't even know if the main @matrix.org server would have held and if federation would have keep working. Not worth the cost? How much did whatsapp cost to Facebook? How much did whatsapp cost before that? Matrix is also running on free and so far we have hosted server offerings but no single individual account offer.
  - rglullis 6y ago
    > we don't hear about mass exodus to matrix. This is argumentum ad populum. > main @matrix.org server There is no "main" server. matrix.org is the biggest one, but it is circunstancial. Matrix and Element do not want be the biggest instances or keep things under their control. I can bet that people working on Matrix would be thrilled with the idea of helping people create more instances, and even it would be beneficial for their business. > Matrix is also running on free and so far we have hosted server offerings but no single individual account offer. https://communick.com https://communick.com, there you go.
    - faitswulff 6y ago
      Isn’t every startup, every service, every open source library an argumentum ad populum? Especially network goods like messaging services. I don’t doubt there’s a lot of value in federated decentralized services, but there’s also a lot of value in confusion/configuration-free usability. Thanks to comments endorsing matrix here, I will be installing it to try, but what Signal gets right is that it pretty much Just Works, and that’s the point GP is making. Frictionless UX coupled with cryptographic excellence make it compelling for lay people, and if it’s between Signal or nothing for the majority of nontechnical folk, then they’re better off using Signal.
arianvanp 6y ago
I more and more get a feeling that the server is a reference implementation but not the thing they run in production. OTOH due to end to end encryption all the fancy features are implemented client-side so the server is very simple in scope. So maybe it's really feature-complete.

iKlsR 6y ago

Earlier today https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25803010 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25803010

zie 6y ago

The problem is 2 fold. 1) a bahillion new signups, so they just needed to deploy a bajillion more instances of the server. 2) The clients basically DDoS'ing their servers. If you look at the android client source, you can see all the commits they put in are about handling errors properly when the server(s) get overloaded.

divbzero 6y ago
Anyone know if these commits are already in App Store and Google Play? I looked for a Signal update on iOS just now and did not see one.
- decrypt 6y ago
  From what I understand, this affects only Android devices, thus the Android 5.2.1 rollout. None for iOS.
  - minot 6y ago
    Not that I speak for the project but this isn’t privileged information anyways: If you have TestFlight, you will see there have been several updates pushed to TestFlight over the last few days.

Arathorn 6y ago

The lack of development-in-the-open on Signal-Server is a little concerning, in terms of not giving visibility on what's at least theoretically running serverside. If you compare it with Matrix, the last commits to Synapse were ~32 hours ago, Dendrite was ~31 hours ago, and Conduit was 3 hours ago - so you can keep up with where development is at, and of course see what is meant to be running in production (and run it yourself if you're able to). My assumption is that what's happening is that Signal-Server is going through contortions to switch everything to UUIDs, in order to avoid hardcoding phone numbers everywhere as identifiers, and this work is being done on a private branch. Meanwhile, there's presumably a private branch for the current live production deployment too. (For Matrix, we maintain a separate branch for the live matrix.org homeserver instance, to allow for hotfixes etc - although it's public, at https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/tree/matrix-org-hotfixes https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/tree/matrix-org-hotfix...)

vlmutolo 6y ago
Very much agree with everything you just said. Quick question, semi-relevant: does the matrix.org homeserver have open monitoring? Is there someone I can look to see server load? I’m curious whether Matrix saw a similar influx of users this past week.
herodoturtle 6y ago
> and of course see what is meant to be running in production (and run it yourself if you're able to). This comment of yours is only the second time I'm hearing of Matrix (the first time was several days ago, in a bunch of comments on an ASK HN discussing the WA policy announcement). And because of your comment (and the implication that Matrix is something one can run independently in production) I am now perusing matrix.org - thanks for sharing. Also I enjoyed your insight with respect to the Signal dev team and what they're possibly currently frantically busy with. Mind if I ask you, what your thoughts are on the Signal project long-term?
- bilal4hmed 6y ago
  Read this https://matrix.org/blog/2020/01/02/on-privacy-versus-freedom https://matrix.org/blog/2020/01/02/on-privacy-versus-freedom

j4ah4n 6y ago

I would hope it’s due to infrastructure changes required to keep the lights on, not code changes. Concerning at first glance, but less so if I think about the problems they’re likely facing with regards to scaling.

neves 6y ago

Did it scale more than Pokemon Go? https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/01/what-pokemon-go-and-other-games-can-teach-developers-about-scaling-up-in-the-cloud/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/01/what-...

oars 6y ago
Great read, thanks for sharing. This is a great case for GCP.
deadbunny 6y ago
Does it matter? They went from ~10MM users to >50MM users very quickly, that's a pain for anyone.

raobit 6y ago

Isn't Session good compared to Signal?

rglullis 6y ago

Honestly, the main lesson I wish developers (and especially Moxie) get to learn is the one that teaches them that centralized services are fragile, bound to fail and simply not worth the cost.

lxgr 6y ago
Centralized in architectural or administrative terms?
- rglullis 6y ago
  Both.
johnchristopher 6y ago
And yet at the end of the day we don't hear about a mass exodus to matrix. We don't even know if the main @matrix.org server would have held and if federation would have keep working. Not worth the cost? How much did whatsapp cost to Facebook? How much did whatsapp cost before that? Matrix is also running on free and so far we have hosted server offerings but no single individual account offer.
- rglullis 6y ago
  > we don't hear about mass exodus to matrix. This is argumentum ad populum. > main @matrix.org server There is no "main" server. matrix.org is the biggest one, but it is circunstancial. Matrix and Element do not want be the biggest instances or keep things under their control. I can bet that people working on Matrix would be thrilled with the idea of helping people create more instances, and even it would be beneficial for their business. > Matrix is also running on free and so far we have hosted server offerings but no single individual account offer. https://communick.com https://communick.com, there you go.
  - faitswulff 6y ago
    Isn’t every startup, every service, every open source library an argumentum ad populum? Especially network goods like messaging services. I don’t doubt there’s a lot of value in federated decentralized services, but there’s also a lot of value in confusion/configuration-free usability. Thanks to comments endorsing matrix here, I will be installing it to try, but what Signal gets right is that it pretty much Just Works, and that’s the point GP is making. Frictionless UX coupled with cryptographic excellence make it compelling for lay people, and if it’s between Signal or nothing for the majority of nontechnical folk, then they’re better off using Signal.

arianvanp 6y ago

I more and more get a feeling that the server is a reference implementation but not the thing they run in production. OTOH due to end to end encryption all the fancy features are implemented client-side so the server is very simple in scope. So maybe it's really feature-complete.