5 ms·

I think my main problem with this is the intermixing of higher "application" level features like surveys and forms with lower level protocol features like "mess

by netik 6y ago

I think my main problem with this is the intermixing of higher "application" level features like surveys and forms with lower level protocol features like "message transport." This seems like a bad idea and goes against years and years of open systems design.

grok22 6y ago
Not sure why that is a problem given the problem domain -- all those high-level features is what will help people consider adopting this. But email can only improve if you fix the whole eco-system including the server side -- which then means also dealing with the protocol. The modification to the protocol will probably help with all those "high-level" features.
- ianai 6y ago
  You have to have a killer feature for something to get adopted.
  - GekkePrutser 6y ago
    The killer feature of a new email protocol will be that it's not SMTP. It should have sender authentication. E2E encryption that's easy and works by default. Those would be more than enough killer features, SMTP is just too broken and all the workarounds we have in place like DKIM, SPF, Spam ratings etc etc don't make up for it. We still have spam, important mails still end up in our junk boxes, and nobody trusts it enough anymore to put important content in emails. The war has long been lost.
    - EricMausler 6y ago
      What are your thoughts on protonmail?
      - thayne 6y ago
        Not the parent, but protonmail is still just more hacking to work around a broken system. It is a valient effort, but to really fix email the whole thing needs to be replaced.
      - GekkePrutser 6y ago
        I'm with thayne above on this one.. Protonmail just offers secure storage on their system but they still see the external incoming emails unless they're PGP encrypted. They make that easy, but still. PGP didn't take off in 30 years, it's just too complex. Tools can help that but the weak point is its key management.
      - mosselman 6y ago
        As far as I know, and I could be wrong, ProtonMail wraps around pgp inbox encryption. Many providers have exactly this service already. The difference seems to be that ProtonMail don’t allow you to use normal imap and your own client with pgp, but force you to use their client. This is probably a trade-off made to protect users against them selves in one way (disabling encryption for grandpa) and hiding the non tech-savvy from all the technical details. Again, many assumptions here. So, to me, mentioning proton here doesn’t make sense as the underlying tech: smtp & pgp have existed and been industry standard for a long time. So there is not issue of adoption.
    - Geezus_42 6y ago
      I have a job because people put important stuff in email... lol
    - ddingus 6y ago
      "Nobody" "War" Few, outside small, likely familiar tech circles, use these terms when discussing email. Not being SMTP usually means being another messaging island or other, which has only strengthened email. Lists have huge value today, still! Now, there is one exception: Marketing The reason? Everyone else is busy getting work done. Whatever may transcend email needs that quality, or it will, in fact be, yet another messaging island.
      - vinay_ys 6y ago
        Exactly. There's no replacing email with something that's closed membership / invite-only etc. The whole point of e-mail is its your address where someone can initiate a contact, like phone number. You can choose to filter it etc. And you can choose to get attested emails which you can trust more etc. But fundamental nature is it is open for anyone to contact you. If you lose that, and build a custom new protocol, you are just building another closed wall messaging application.
        jbaber 6y ago
        Gmail has done this. I often follow up e-mails from my personal domain with a copy from a gmail account since it gets guessed as spam randomly.
    - AndrewSChapman 6y ago
      Agree with everything you've said. Additionally, consistent rendering. If you've ever tried to send an email campaign and had to support all the old (and sometimes surprisingly new) Outlook clients and Lotus notes, you'll know just how painful that is. Email must be: * Secure and encrypted; * Have proven identity; * Have easy to fabricate and predictable rendering; I feel like the ability to have forms and charts is very nice, but adds a lot of complexity, especially from a security point of view. I'd be looking at this kind of "application level" functionally being a layer added optionally on top, not being in the core protocol.
xtf 6y ago
And that is what xmpp already offers
- 3131s 6y ago
  It seems to be a favorite of criminals everywhere, which is a good measure of worth in this case. https://www.cyberscoop.com/jabber-xmpp-cybercrime-russia-encrypted-chat/ https://www.cyberscoop.com/jabber-xmpp-cybercrime-russia-enc... There was a major deep web counterfeiter about a decade ago that remained active on Jabber even as a federal fugitive, not sure what ended up happening to him.
unethical_ban 6y ago
Open systems design has lost the messaging wars. Federated/decentralized, secure, non-real-time messaging is the problem space. If it can make some overwhelmingly common use cases of current e-mail that much easier, then so be it.
- teleforce 6y ago
  Don't count your chickens just yet, the jury is still out on this one. If history has any say on this, communication solution based on proprietary technology will meet their death sooner rather than later. How many network protocols have been invented before and after TCP/IP? I know we are talking about messaging now, but messaging is just another overlay network over TCP/IP. I'd envision in the future that the open messaging systems will be more pervasive. It will be based on local-first software and probably based on the automerge capabilities. The automerge community is focusing on collaborative editing at the moment but could someone please work on automerge solution for messaging system? This can be an excellent new paradigm for open world of messaging. I am seriously tired of people asking me to install the proprietary software of WhatsApp, Line, Wechat, etc.
networkimprov 6y ago
There has to be a definition of acceptable message formats for standard clients. I suppose that could be a separate protocol, but for now, there's one protocol draft. Also addressed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25804869#25807379 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25804869#25807379 (I'm the author.)
- networkimprov 6y ago
  A new FAQ page will be linked from this spot on Jan 18th. Check back to be enlightened! Or watch on Twitter: https://twitter.com/mnmnotmail https://twitter.com/mnmnotmail
- networkimprov 6y ago
  The FAQ! https://mnmnotmail.org/faq.html https://mnmnotmail.org/faq.html
vinay_ys 6y ago
Yes, it is unfortunate they chose to do that. I stopped reading when I saw that section.
- networkimprov 6y ago
  It makes me smile to hear that someone expects to read a perfect document on a perfect product which they understand perfectly; even tho the product is a preview, the document is a draft, and they only read it once.
  - vinay_ys 6y ago
    There was nothing imperfect in what I read. It was perfectly clear what features this product considers in its scope. I just didn't agree that those feature went well together with the stated goal of replacing current email systems.
AndrewSChapman 6y ago
Completely agree.

by netik 6y ago

grok22 6y ago

Not sure why that is a problem given the problem domain -- all those high-level features is what will help people consider adopting this. But email can only improve if you fix the whole eco-system including the server side -- which then means also dealing with the protocol. The modification to the protocol will probably help with all those "high-level" features.

ianai 6y ago
You have to have a killer feature for something to get adopted.
- GekkePrutser 6y ago
  The killer feature of a new email protocol will be that it's not SMTP. It should have sender authentication. E2E encryption that's easy and works by default. Those would be more than enough killer features, SMTP is just too broken and all the workarounds we have in place like DKIM, SPF, Spam ratings etc etc don't make up for it. We still have spam, important mails still end up in our junk boxes, and nobody trusts it enough anymore to put important content in emails. The war has long been lost.
  - EricMausler 6y ago
    What are your thoughts on protonmail?
    - thayne 6y ago
      Not the parent, but protonmail is still just more hacking to work around a broken system. It is a valient effort, but to really fix email the whole thing needs to be replaced.
    - GekkePrutser 6y ago
      I'm with thayne above on this one.. Protonmail just offers secure storage on their system but they still see the external incoming emails unless they're PGP encrypted. They make that easy, but still. PGP didn't take off in 30 years, it's just too complex. Tools can help that but the weak point is its key management.
    - mosselman 6y ago
      As far as I know, and I could be wrong, ProtonMail wraps around pgp inbox encryption. Many providers have exactly this service already. The difference seems to be that ProtonMail don’t allow you to use normal imap and your own client with pgp, but force you to use their client. This is probably a trade-off made to protect users against them selves in one way (disabling encryption for grandpa) and hiding the non tech-savvy from all the technical details. Again, many assumptions here. So, to me, mentioning proton here doesn’t make sense as the underlying tech: smtp & pgp have existed and been industry standard for a long time. So there is not issue of adoption.
  - Geezus_42 6y ago
    I have a job because people put important stuff in email... lol
  - ddingus 6y ago
    "Nobody" "War" Few, outside small, likely familiar tech circles, use these terms when discussing email. Not being SMTP usually means being another messaging island or other, which has only strengthened email. Lists have huge value today, still! Now, there is one exception: Marketing The reason? Everyone else is busy getting work done. Whatever may transcend email needs that quality, or it will, in fact be, yet another messaging island.
    - vinay_ys 6y ago
      Exactly. There's no replacing email with something that's closed membership / invite-only etc. The whole point of e-mail is its your address where someone can initiate a contact, like phone number. You can choose to filter it etc. And you can choose to get attested emails which you can trust more etc. But fundamental nature is it is open for anyone to contact you. If you lose that, and build a custom new protocol, you are just building another closed wall messaging application.
      - jbaber 6y ago
        Gmail has done this. I often follow up e-mails from my personal domain with a copy from a gmail account since it gets guessed as spam randomly.
  - AndrewSChapman 6y ago
    Agree with everything you've said. Additionally, consistent rendering. If you've ever tried to send an email campaign and had to support all the old (and sometimes surprisingly new) Outlook clients and Lotus notes, you'll know just how painful that is. Email must be: * Secure and encrypted; * Have proven identity; * Have easy to fabricate and predictable rendering; I feel like the ability to have forms and charts is very nice, but adds a lot of complexity, especially from a security point of view. I'd be looking at this kind of "application level" functionally being a layer added optionally on top, not being in the core protocol.

xtf 6y ago

And that is what xmpp already offers

3131s 6y ago
It seems to be a favorite of criminals everywhere, which is a good measure of worth in this case. https://www.cyberscoop.com/jabber-xmpp-cybercrime-russia-encrypted-chat/ https://www.cyberscoop.com/jabber-xmpp-cybercrime-russia-enc... There was a major deep web counterfeiter about a decade ago that remained active on Jabber even as a federal fugitive, not sure what ended up happening to him.

unethical_ban 6y ago

Open systems design has lost the messaging wars. Federated/decentralized, secure, non-real-time messaging is the problem space. If it can make some overwhelmingly common use cases of current e-mail that much easier, then so be it.

teleforce 6y ago
Don't count your chickens just yet, the jury is still out on this one. If history has any say on this, communication solution based on proprietary technology will meet their death sooner rather than later. How many network protocols have been invented before and after TCP/IP? I know we are talking about messaging now, but messaging is just another overlay network over TCP/IP. I'd envision in the future that the open messaging systems will be more pervasive. It will be based on local-first software and probably based on the automerge capabilities. The automerge community is focusing on collaborative editing at the moment but could someone please work on automerge solution for messaging system? This can be an excellent new paradigm for open world of messaging. I am seriously tired of people asking me to install the proprietary software of WhatsApp, Line, Wechat, etc.

networkimprov 6y ago

There has to be a definition of acceptable message formats for standard clients. I suppose that could be a separate protocol, but for now, there's one protocol draft. Also addressed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25804869#25807379 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25804869#25807379 (I'm the author.)

networkimprov 6y ago
A new FAQ page will be linked from this spot on Jan 18th. Check back to be enlightened! Or watch on Twitter: https://twitter.com/mnmnotmail https://twitter.com/mnmnotmail
networkimprov 6y ago
The FAQ! https://mnmnotmail.org/faq.html https://mnmnotmail.org/faq.html

vinay_ys 6y ago

Yes, it is unfortunate they chose to do that. I stopped reading when I saw that section.

networkimprov 6y ago
It makes me smile to hear that someone expects to read a perfect document on a perfect product which they understand perfectly; even tho the product is a preview, the document is a draft, and they only read it once.
- vinay_ys 6y ago
  There was nothing imperfect in what I read. It was perfectly clear what features this product considers in its scope. I just didn't agree that those feature went well together with the stated goal of replacing current email systems.

AndrewSChapman 6y ago

Completely agree.