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Canadian here. Our culture tends to pick and choose from the best of either the American or the European approach. We don't always get it right, and the combin

Canadian here. Our culture tends to pick and choose from the best of either the American or the European approach. We don't always get it right, and the combination/middle ground isn't necessarily better than either of the alternatives, but I do feel like we have some general insight and sympathy to both the European and the American philosophies. I've also lived as an ex-pat in Europe for 4 years working closely with both Europeans and AMericans. In this regard, I think the American approach is superior. 1) Europeans are overly sensitive about "micro-friendliness". I've heard people complain that the cashier at the grocery store asks "How are you doing?". "They don't really care, why do they ask!" I've had to explain that no, they don't care, but that moment of friendliness is still a pleasant one, and over the course of the day, all those moments add up to a generally positive contribution to one's existence. Americans do take faux-friendliness over the top (especially if it's only reserved for the local in-group, see: southern "hospitality"), but I think the Europeans need to lighten up a bit. 2) While I don't need my waitresses to be so friendly to the point that they seem like they're flirting with you, the European waitstaff at restaurants are far from neutral, and are actively disinterested in your hospitality experience. This doesn't apply to fancy high-end restaurants, of course. But just a general casual lunch or dinner you're just not going to get the same quality of service as you do in North America. While I abhor tipping, I can't help but think that it does create some positive incentives in staff here.

Bayart 6y ago
>But just a general casual lunch or dinner you're just not going to get the same quality of service as you do in North America. That's just circling back to North America and Continental Europe having diametrically opposed notions of what good service means and what social interactions are desirable. At the risk of sounding like a prick, a good staff member here is someone who makes themselves completely invisible from customers while keeping the shop running smoothly. Having a waiter trying to build a rapport with me because ultimately I have to be the one paying them instead of their boss is infuriating, and the intrusion of a third party into my table-size privacy bubble is extremely unwelcome.
- deanCommie 6y ago
  Meanwhile, coming from the other side, I would love if I can get a waiter to discuss something else I need (more mayo, a napkin, etc) without feeling like I need to either wait for half my meal, yell across the restuarant, or go wander through looking for it. You went out into public to have a meal, why are you expecting privacy? If you wanted privacy, get takeout and eat at home.
  - danielscrubs 6y ago
    I’d assume most eat out because they want to meet friends without hassle and experience the chefs food piping hot. Seeking eye contact with the waiter isn’t that inconvenient either... But for me I have very happy memories of talking with waiters in mom and pop restaurants, at the same time I do feel tipping increases the incentive to talk with customers so... it comes back to honesty, do you really want to talk or does it JUST increase the probability of tipping?
robocat 6y ago
> I've heard people complain that the cashier at the grocery store asks "How are you doing?". "They don't really care, why do they ask!" Uggghhhh, I loath being asked that. Firstly, the staff are forced to say it as part of their job and they are checked. It’s inhuman to make someone do that. Also it fucks with my head - now I feel forced to do some interaction to lessen the evil of their work day (it is always shitty jobs) and I find it draining by sympathy. It breaks the humanness of just being polite and thankful to anyone you interact with that is working hard (even if they are tired, emotionally drained, or don’t want to be there). > especially if it's only reserved for the local in-group, see: southern "hospitality" Can you explain that? > tipping, I can't help but think that it does create some positive incentives in staff here. Tipping is outright disgusting: paying people to be nice just creates inhuman fakeness. The image of some fat leering arsehole, or ugly souled woman, getting their ego stroked by a young wage slave is abhorrent. The worst I ever saw was young American tourists on the coast of Mexico (a small town called San Francisco I think) - the way the tourists treated the staff was wretchedly vile (maybe due to the staff being mostly poor and Mexican?) Edit: that sounded a bit US bashing, so I will add that I have met many wonderful, kind, interesting and friendly Americans. I have even been treated to Southern Hospitality and it seemed genuine enough to me (even though me and my partner essentially just gate-crashed their party on short notice!). Being white and kiwi might help my impressions though...?! Edit: in my experience Canadians and New Zealanders have similar outlooks.
- deanCommie 6y ago
  > > especially if it's only reserved for the local in-group, see: southern "hospitality" > can you explain that? I think you touched upon it in your last paragraph acknowledging being white and kiwi. It is such an overwhelming force of human friendliness and welcomeness, that you assume it must be genuine human connection. Except try being gay, black, or an atheist, and see how quickly all that turns... As far as the rest of your points, I think you're exaggerating a bit. Most people (at least in north america) don't mind being micro-friendly as part of a service job. Sure, yes, it's "required", but the ratio of monstrous leering arseholes is not high, and while it's tiring to be friendly by the end of a long workday at a grocery store, people don't feel it to be a fundamentally dehumanizing act. I think the bigger problem with tipping is situations where it allows employers to pay less than minimum wage - that is abhorent. Getting a tip shouldn't be a requirement to get to a living wage. But as an incentive to being a little more engaged with your job? I think it's good. > Edit: in my experience Canadians and New Zealanders have similar outlooks. We are alike in many ways. We both live in the shadow of a larger, brasher arrogant power who dismisses us, and people on the other side of the world lump us in together with them. But no, when it comes to restaurants, service culture, tipping, and micro-friendliness in public Canadians are much closer to Americans than to New Zealanders.
danielscrubs 6y ago
Say what you mean, mean what you say.
arp242 6y ago
> Europeans are overly sensitive about "micro-friendliness". I've heard people complain that the cashier at the grocery store asks "How are you doing?". "They don't really care, why do they ask!" This is more of an expectations thing; certainly in Dutch, asking "how are you doing" is something you do when you ask when you really want to start a conversation, and you expect a somewhat serious reply in return, whereas in some other cultures it essentially just means "hi" with no expectation of a real answer beyond "good" or some such. When I worked for an Irish company I had some coworkers say "how are ya" when meeting in the hallway or some such; I started replying serious ("yeah, I'm good, last night I [..]") but they didn't really expect an answer so continued walking leaving us both confused; me as they didn't stop, and them as I started a conversation. It led to some awkward-y situations before I figured this out haha At any rate, I don't think it's "sensitivity", it's just that these words are taken to have a different meaning. These are the kind of subtle things about learning a language; you can know all the words and grammar, but you also need to learn what's meant with them, and that can actually be pretty hard. Translating a simple sentence such as this is easy, but really understanding what's intended (which may differ on the tone of voice, location, context, etc.) is really hard, and even Europeans who speak good English but haven't spent a lot of time in English-speaking countries tend to fail at this (I certainly did) as it's not really something you can learn from communicating in English over text either.
- deanCommie 6y ago
  I hear you, but I'm not talking about people discussing this concept in the abstract, I'm talking about people that have moved to and lived in North America for YEARS, and never stopped being bothered by it. I've also heard Italians, French, and Swiss complain about it. The issue wasn't the language, it was the faux cheeriness that came with it.
MaxBarraclough 6y ago
> Europeans are overly sensitive about "micro-friendliness". I've heard people complain that the cashier at the grocery store asks "How are you doing?". "They don't really care, why do they ask!" As a Brit I feel this way, I personally don't ask someone how they're doing unless I'm interested in the answer, but the rhetorical How are you doing? is used plenty in Britain. How do you do? has fallen out of common usage but traditionally the proper response was How do you do?

Bayart 6y ago

>But just a general casual lunch or dinner you're just not going to get the same quality of service as you do in North America. That's just circling back to North America and Continental Europe having diametrically opposed notions of what good service means and what social interactions are desirable. At the risk of sounding like a prick, a good staff member here is someone who makes themselves completely invisible from customers while keeping the shop running smoothly. Having a waiter trying to build a rapport with me because ultimately I have to be the one paying them instead of their boss is infuriating, and the intrusion of a third party into my table-size privacy bubble is extremely unwelcome.

deanCommie 6y ago
Meanwhile, coming from the other side, I would love if I can get a waiter to discuss something else I need (more mayo, a napkin, etc) without feeling like I need to either wait for half my meal, yell across the restuarant, or go wander through looking for it. You went out into public to have a meal, why are you expecting privacy? If you wanted privacy, get takeout and eat at home.
- danielscrubs 6y ago
  I’d assume most eat out because they want to meet friends without hassle and experience the chefs food piping hot. Seeking eye contact with the waiter isn’t that inconvenient either... But for me I have very happy memories of talking with waiters in mom and pop restaurants, at the same time I do feel tipping increases the incentive to talk with customers so... it comes back to honesty, do you really want to talk or does it JUST increase the probability of tipping?

robocat 6y ago

> I've heard people complain that the cashier at the grocery store asks "How are you doing?". "They don't really care, why do they ask!" Uggghhhh, I loath being asked that. Firstly, the staff are forced to say it as part of their job and they are checked. It’s inhuman to make someone do that. Also it fucks with my head - now I feel forced to do some interaction to lessen the evil of their work day (it is always shitty jobs) and I find it draining by sympathy. It breaks the humanness of just being polite and thankful to anyone you interact with that is working hard (even if they are tired, emotionally drained, or don’t want to be there). > especially if it's only reserved for the local in-group, see: southern "hospitality" Can you explain that? > tipping, I can't help but think that it does create some positive incentives in staff here. Tipping is outright disgusting: paying people to be nice just creates inhuman fakeness. The image of some fat leering arsehole, or ugly souled woman, getting their ego stroked by a young wage slave is abhorrent. The worst I ever saw was young American tourists on the coast of Mexico (a small town called San Francisco I think) - the way the tourists treated the staff was wretchedly vile (maybe due to the staff being mostly poor and Mexican?) Edit: that sounded a bit US bashing, so I will add that I have met many wonderful, kind, interesting and friendly Americans. I have even been treated to Southern Hospitality and it seemed genuine enough to me (even though me and my partner essentially just gate-crashed their party on short notice!). Being white and kiwi might help my impressions though...?! Edit: in my experience Canadians and New Zealanders have similar outlooks.

deanCommie 6y ago
> > especially if it's only reserved for the local in-group, see: southern "hospitality" > can you explain that? I think you touched upon it in your last paragraph acknowledging being white and kiwi. It is such an overwhelming force of human friendliness and welcomeness, that you assume it must be genuine human connection. Except try being gay, black, or an atheist, and see how quickly all that turns... As far as the rest of your points, I think you're exaggerating a bit. Most people (at least in north america) don't mind being micro-friendly as part of a service job. Sure, yes, it's "required", but the ratio of monstrous leering arseholes is not high, and while it's tiring to be friendly by the end of a long workday at a grocery store, people don't feel it to be a fundamentally dehumanizing act. I think the bigger problem with tipping is situations where it allows employers to pay less than minimum wage - that is abhorent. Getting a tip shouldn't be a requirement to get to a living wage. But as an incentive to being a little more engaged with your job? I think it's good. > Edit: in my experience Canadians and New Zealanders have similar outlooks. We are alike in many ways. We both live in the shadow of a larger, brasher arrogant power who dismisses us, and people on the other side of the world lump us in together with them. But no, when it comes to restaurants, service culture, tipping, and micro-friendliness in public Canadians are much closer to Americans than to New Zealanders.

danielscrubs 6y ago

Say what you mean, mean what you say.

arp242 6y ago

> Europeans are overly sensitive about "micro-friendliness". I've heard people complain that the cashier at the grocery store asks "How are you doing?". "They don't really care, why do they ask!" This is more of an expectations thing; certainly in Dutch, asking "how are you doing" is something you do when you ask when you really want to start a conversation, and you expect a somewhat serious reply in return, whereas in some other cultures it essentially just means "hi" with no expectation of a real answer beyond "good" or some such. When I worked for an Irish company I had some coworkers say "how are ya" when meeting in the hallway or some such; I started replying serious ("yeah, I'm good, last night I [..]") but they didn't really expect an answer so continued walking leaving us both confused; me as they didn't stop, and them as I started a conversation. It led to some awkward-y situations before I figured this out haha At any rate, I don't think it's "sensitivity", it's just that these words are taken to have a different meaning. These are the kind of subtle things about learning a language; you can know all the words and grammar, but you also need to learn what's meant with them, and that can actually be pretty hard. Translating a simple sentence such as this is easy, but really understanding what's intended (which may differ on the tone of voice, location, context, etc.) is really hard, and even Europeans who speak good English but haven't spent a lot of time in English-speaking countries tend to fail at this (I certainly did) as it's not really something you can learn from communicating in English over text either.

deanCommie 6y ago
I hear you, but I'm not talking about people discussing this concept in the abstract, I'm talking about people that have moved to and lived in North America for YEARS, and never stopped being bothered by it. I've also heard Italians, French, and Swiss complain about it. The issue wasn't the language, it was the faux cheeriness that came with it.

MaxBarraclough 6y ago

> Europeans are overly sensitive about "micro-friendliness". I've heard people complain that the cashier at the grocery store asks "How are you doing?". "They don't really care, why do they ask!" As a Brit I feel this way, I personally don't ask someone how they're doing unless I'm interested in the answer, but the rhetorical How are you doing? is used plenty in Britain. How do you do? has fallen out of common usage but traditionally the proper response was How do you do?