5 ms·

Is there any reason that Google couldn't, or wouldn't, repurpose Google Safe Browsing to blacklist sites that are "unsafe" due to under- or poorly moderated con

Is there any reason that Google couldn't, or wouldn't, repurpose Google Safe Browsing to blacklist sites that are "unsafe" due to under- or poorly moderated content? E.g. doing this to Parler after they find hosting again? I can't think of a reliable one.

TazeTSchnitzel 6y ago
There's a very obvious reason not to do that: if you apparently maliciously cry wolf a few times, people won't trust your cries any more, and, for example, other browsers might choose to stop using the Google Safe Browsing list.
- heipei 6y ago
  So what would they use instead? It's not like there are any other free, real-time and mostly accurate malicious-URL databases around for people to plug into their browsers and products.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 6y ago
    Perhaps “comes the hour, comes the man” would apply? It's a difficult problem, but if there was an urgent need for a solution, I'm sure one could be found.
  - the8472 6y ago
    Nothing at all. Many people survive exposure to the internet without being protected by corporate firewalls, think-of-the-children filters and antivirus. Or do we expect UK citizens to curl up in fetal position and start screaming as soon as they leave their country because they're no longer protected by their ISP filters?
    - heipei 6y ago
      As someone who tracks phishing pages I would disagree. The amount of really high-quality fast flux phishing put out every day on completely legitimate-looking domains is astonishing. I know plenty of people who would immediately fall for it, and I wouldn't blame them one bit.
      - the8472 6y ago
        I don't doubt that phishing exists, but it's still a tail risk, it's not like the majority of the internet population got scammed 24/7 before google stepped in. So if google were to abuse that power then we could choose living with an increased risk instead of trusting them. At least until another solution is found.
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  What other browsers? Almost all users of SB are using Chrome.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 6y ago
    Firefox and Safari. I know, Chrome is huge these days and it's a problem, but it's not like anything can be done about Chrome.
    - CodeWriter23 6y ago
      As @gomox alludes in his article, Firefox uses Google Safe Browsing API.
      - TazeTSchnitzel 6y ago
        That's the whole point of my comment, yes?
- freedomben 6y ago
  I would agree, but "apparently maliciously" is too subjective. According to US conservatives this is what Twitter, Facebook, Amazon, Google, Apple, Twilio, Snapchat, etc all did to Parler for political reasons. According to US progressives/liberals it was absolutely not malicious, but rather the polar opposite: protecting people. These days there is no common agreement on that stuff, and given the recent events I see no reason to believe that they wouldn't do as GP asked.
  - BlueTemplar 6y ago
    Sounds like a full inversion of terms "conservative" and "progressive/liberal" has happened?
    - freedomben 6y ago
      Indeed, although I suspect it's just because of the politics here. If Parler had been a progressive/liberal haven conservatives would support censoring while progressives would be outraged at the violation of free speech. The reason I think this is that's what happened with "private companies can do what they want." Giant corporations imposing their values on individuals is not a problem for progressives when it's big tech. Likewise Conservatives don't seem to support private property rights and no regulation anymore.
- gomox 6y ago
  Author here. I think it's too late in the cycle for that. This list is too widespread and anyone that is banned from it needs to immediately work around the issue somehow, therefore reducing the visibility of the problems.
- rcoveson 6y ago
  No, I don't think that's how it would play out. 1. Google bans parler.com on Jan. 8th by adding it as an "unsafe URL" to their blacklist. 2. Mozilla issues statement: "While we don't believe it was prudent to use the Safe Browsing blacklist for this purpose, given recent events, we will not be unblocking parler.com, and do not currently deem it necessary to maintain a separate safe browsing list." 3. Something similar happens a few months from now, and this time there's no statement from Mozilla or Microsoft. It has now become accepted that blacklisting less-moderated social media, which can cause real-world harm, is a normal use for the Safe Browsing list. The problem is, if a mainstream browser goes against the flow, it becomes "The Nazi Browser." Its market share was already less than Chrome's, and now it's getting all these new users who are outcasts. This is a Hard Problem of moderation in a small market. You can't be the one out of three players who moderates less, lest you be overwhelmed by undesirables and less-desirables.
  - gomox 6y ago
    I can't tell if this is true or not - was parler.com actually blocked with this mechanism?
    - rcoveson 6y ago
      No, they were taken down by their cloud provider and by the two mobile app stores. My story was hypothetical, though disturbingly the companies involved don't entirely change when you talk about a take down from a different layer.
  - tialaramex 6y ago
    I guess just entirely inventing the slope and start points as well as a predicted trajectory is a new achievement in "slippery slope" arguments. Congratulations. More seriously, maybe invent imaginary third parties rather than arbitrarily assigning your imagined bad motives and awful consequences to real people who did none of what you've suggested? Google could, if they wanted, just add a new category to Safe Browsing. They could call it "Arbitrary censorship" or "Nazis are bad" or whatever you want. There are already several categories which even use slightly different parameters for the core technology so this wouldn't substantially change the system and yet would add much more flexibility if you wanted (as you might well) to protect against Phishing whether from Nazis or not, while still visiting a popular web site organising the overthrow of American democracy.
mr_toad 6y ago
Users would start to ignore the warnings and proceed anyway, or even turn safe browsing off.

TazeTSchnitzel 6y ago

There's a very obvious reason not to do that: if you apparently maliciously cry wolf a few times, people won't trust your cries any more, and, for example, other browsers might choose to stop using the Google Safe Browsing list.

heipei 6y ago
So what would they use instead? It's not like there are any other free, real-time and mostly accurate malicious-URL databases around for people to plug into their browsers and products.
- TazeTSchnitzel 6y ago
  Perhaps “comes the hour, comes the man” would apply? It's a difficult problem, but if there was an urgent need for a solution, I'm sure one could be found.
- the8472 6y ago
  Nothing at all. Many people survive exposure to the internet without being protected by corporate firewalls, think-of-the-children filters and antivirus. Or do we expect UK citizens to curl up in fetal position and start screaming as soon as they leave their country because they're no longer protected by their ISP filters?
  - heipei 6y ago
    As someone who tracks phishing pages I would disagree. The amount of really high-quality fast flux phishing put out every day on completely legitimate-looking domains is astonishing. I know plenty of people who would immediately fall for it, and I wouldn't blame them one bit.
    - the8472 6y ago
      I don't doubt that phishing exists, but it's still a tail risk, it's not like the majority of the internet population got scammed 24/7 before google stepped in. So if google were to abuse that power then we could choose living with an increased risk instead of trusting them. At least until another solution is found.
alisonkisk 6y ago
What other browsers? Almost all users of SB are using Chrome.
- TazeTSchnitzel 6y ago
  Firefox and Safari. I know, Chrome is huge these days and it's a problem, but it's not like anything can be done about Chrome.
  - CodeWriter23 6y ago
    As @gomox alludes in his article, Firefox uses Google Safe Browsing API.
    - TazeTSchnitzel 6y ago
      That's the whole point of my comment, yes?
freedomben 6y ago
I would agree, but "apparently maliciously" is too subjective. According to US conservatives this is what Twitter, Facebook, Amazon, Google, Apple, Twilio, Snapchat, etc all did to Parler for political reasons. According to US progressives/liberals it was absolutely not malicious, but rather the polar opposite: protecting people. These days there is no common agreement on that stuff, and given the recent events I see no reason to believe that they wouldn't do as GP asked.
- BlueTemplar 6y ago
  Sounds like a full inversion of terms "conservative" and "progressive/liberal" has happened?
  - freedomben 6y ago
    Indeed, although I suspect it's just because of the politics here. If Parler had been a progressive/liberal haven conservatives would support censoring while progressives would be outraged at the violation of free speech. The reason I think this is that's what happened with "private companies can do what they want." Giant corporations imposing their values on individuals is not a problem for progressives when it's big tech. Likewise Conservatives don't seem to support private property rights and no regulation anymore.
gomox 6y ago
Author here. I think it's too late in the cycle for that. This list is too widespread and anyone that is banned from it needs to immediately work around the issue somehow, therefore reducing the visibility of the problems.
rcoveson 6y ago
No, I don't think that's how it would play out. 1. Google bans parler.com on Jan. 8th by adding it as an "unsafe URL" to their blacklist. 2. Mozilla issues statement: "While we don't believe it was prudent to use the Safe Browsing blacklist for this purpose, given recent events, we will not be unblocking parler.com, and do not currently deem it necessary to maintain a separate safe browsing list." 3. Something similar happens a few months from now, and this time there's no statement from Mozilla or Microsoft. It has now become accepted that blacklisting less-moderated social media, which can cause real-world harm, is a normal use for the Safe Browsing list. The problem is, if a mainstream browser goes against the flow, it becomes "The Nazi Browser." Its market share was already less than Chrome's, and now it's getting all these new users who are outcasts. This is a Hard Problem of moderation in a small market. You can't be the one out of three players who moderates less, lest you be overwhelmed by undesirables and less-desirables.
- gomox 6y ago
  I can't tell if this is true or not - was parler.com actually blocked with this mechanism?
  - rcoveson 6y ago
    No, they were taken down by their cloud provider and by the two mobile app stores. My story was hypothetical, though disturbingly the companies involved don't entirely change when you talk about a take down from a different layer.
- tialaramex 6y ago
  I guess just entirely inventing the slope and start points as well as a predicted trajectory is a new achievement in "slippery slope" arguments. Congratulations. More seriously, maybe invent imaginary third parties rather than arbitrarily assigning your imagined bad motives and awful consequences to real people who did none of what you've suggested? Google could, if they wanted, just add a new category to Safe Browsing. They could call it "Arbitrary censorship" or "Nazis are bad" or whatever you want. There are already several categories which even use slightly different parameters for the core technology so this wouldn't substantially change the system and yet would add much more flexibility if you wanted (as you might well) to protect against Phishing whether from Nazis or not, while still visiting a popular web site organising the overthrow of American democracy.

mr_toad 6y ago

Users would start to ignore the warnings and proceed anyway, or even turn safe browsing off.