6 ms·

Bonsai in an encapsulated environmental system: Paludarium Yasutoshi

110 points by polm23 6y ago

ThePhysicist 6y ago
Looks really cool. They even play music for the plant! I'm running several aquariums at home between 17 and 240 litres that I try to run with as little intervention as possible, so I'm quite interested in self-sustaining minuature "ecosystems". In aquariums the plant growth is usually the one thing that requires intervention, as some plant species (especially stem plants and floating plants) will completely overrun the ecosystem within weeks if not trimmed back, and they often will shade the other plants causing them to become stunted or die off entirely. Aquarists or aquascapers (which is a trend that in its modern interpretation also originated in Japan) will often take pride in being able to grow rare or demanding plant species in their tanks. In some cases this can require holding a lot of parameters in balance: Light, micro- & macro-nutrients (in the water and in the soil), water hardness, PH and temperature.
- jimnotgym 6y ago
  I have been following this movement on YouTube. It looks fascinating. A lot more interesting to me than the bonsai installation. I have an aesthetic and a practical concern. Practically pines (and many others) naturally have a dormant period over the winter, which is amongst the reasons why bonsai live outside. Some trees die without it. It also looks like a great environment for fungal growth! Aesthetically this is more like seeing a person on life support than seeing them alive. Like bonsai tree in the matrix. I guess this is just an art installation though, but I hope they don't kill the tree.
- qwantim1 6y ago
  My one experiment in setting up a natural ecosystem in a small aquarium went horribly wrong, with organic sediment floating all around in the tank. Natural freshwater aquariums that are setup properly look beautiful compared to the majority of aquariums for freshwater that are just gravel, but setup and water changes take much more planning, access to materials, and talent than I found that I have.
  - ThePhysicist 6y ago
    I only change water at the beginning when setting up a new aquarium, once it's stable I do a water change maybe every 3-6 months. The small tanks have a lot of evaporation as well so every week I add 2-4 litres of fresh water to them, so additional water changes are not really needed. If you have a large number of healthy plants in the aquarium and enough filter surface there's usually no problem with nitrate/nitrite buildup. I know people that run their aquariums for decades without a water change (replacing evaporated water of course), so it's definitely possible. You can't agressively use fertilizer though in that case. Most aquascapers use "estimative index" fertilization method where they usually strongly overdose fertilizer to ensure no plant has any nutrient deficiencies, this then makes regular water changes necessary as inevitably there will be a buildup of organics or nutrients otherwise. Personally I found that with most plants you don't need to do that. In most of my aquariums I also don't use organic soil and instead put a combination of volcanic (anorganic) rock and gravel. Works quite well for most plants and if you have enough fish in the aquarium they will produce almost all necessary organics for your plants to thrive.
    - studius 6y ago
      How would you approach setting up and maintaining the following nano-aquascape, with an outcome similar to the Walstad method[1][2]: * freshwater 11.3L natural tank, ranging 9.5L - 11L through evaporation * no powered filtration, aeration, and optimally without a water heater * little if any sunlight * water temperature in tank may range 18.3C to 24.9C through each year * 1 or more aquatic creatures, preferably one creature living a few or more years, removed within a day if they die and replaced within 3 weeks * no water changes after 2-3 months of stabilization initially * no more than a few hours of initial setup * little maintenance required to sustain itself as described other than topping tank with inexpensive bottled spring water * high probability of sustaining itself within these constraints for many years I read and experienced that smaller tanks are harder to setup with 10cm of sand possibly needed for Walstad method that size tank[3]. In "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" and on her site, Walstad writes that she had success with 3.8L and 7.6L tanks using her Dry Start Method[4] to setup the plants, and then hosted shrimp. However, as interesting a shrimp are, my experience with ghost shrimp was that they were inexpensive, looked lively, and then died suddenly within weeks. She speaks of red cherry shrimp, which I've not found locally. I recommend her site[5] which has a lot of information about Planted Aquariums along with the latest corrections for her book; she also describes how she bred guppies in 12 gallon plastic tubs without any filtration or aeration[6] outdoors 15.5C-25.5°F. [1]- https://amazon.com/dp/B00DB94K5I https://amazon.com/dp/B00DB94K5I [2]- http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/wiki/Walstad_method http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/wiki/Walstad_method [3]- https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/setting-up-3-gallon-walstad-bowl.297688/ https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/setting-u... [4]- https://dianawalstad.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/shrimprcs2017.pdf https://dianawalstad.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/shrimprcs20... [5]- https://dianawalstad.com/aquariums/ https://dianawalstad.com/aquariums/ [6]- https://dianawalstad.files.wordpress.com/2020/08/small-scale-breeding-aug2020.pdf https://dianawalstad.files.wordpress.com/2020/08/small-scale...
- christiansakai 6y ago
  Fellow aquascapers here! I went from Walstad mode to high-tech slow growing plants ADA style. Both are surprisingly low maintenance and algae free. I just change the water, do some ferts, and feed the fish. I think I can bypass changing the water if I want to.
- Vervious 6y ago
  It's crazy how much and how little maintenance a high-tech aquascape needs. I just got back from a six-week trip and all the stems and carpet are completely overgrown, but algae is still minimal and the fish and shrimp are none-the-wiser.
  - petre 6y ago
    What do your shripm and fush eat?algae, dead plants exclysively? I'm just changing the water in onne of my low tech aquariums as we speak. I have RCS, Boraras and Otos in them.
bloak 6y ago
Apparently the oldest known closed terrarium has been sealed since 1972: search for "David Latimer" and "terrarium". Apparently they were popular around 1960 so I'm disappointed they can't find one that's been going since 1960.
- jgwil2 6y ago
  I'll save you a search: https://biologicperformance.com/sealed-bottle-terrarium-garden-watered-once-53-years/ https://biologicperformance.com/sealed-bottle-terrarium-gard... Funnily enough just stumbled across this the other day.
  - SulfurHexaFluri 6y ago
    This is probably the most interesting thing I have seen in a long time. This just seems like something that simply shouldn't be possible. I tried looking up more info but most of the results are this guy. Does anyone know if it really is as simple as putting some dirt and water in a pot or are there more specific requirements for it to work?
- pvaldes 6y ago
  I guarantee you that anybody could obtain the same results. Latimer's terrarium is not a very good example IMAO. Why?, because is the opposite of a landscape. There is not design or arrangement possible. The plant just will fill all the available volume and kill any other species in the bottle. The plant inside that bottle is Tradescantia fluminensis. A South American weed that is popular indoors. Can store water in the stems and stand dry periods. Will shrink and regrow and multiply later from tiny chunks of the stem. Is an invasive species in Australia and Europe that will be destroyed only by frost.
pvaldes 6y ago
Too expensive in terms of energy for most homes probably, but I could see it perfectly being hired as a tree hospital to recover valuable bonsai specimens in urban areas where maintaining and finding space for a bigger greenhouse can be complicated Would be also a good anti-theft device. It looks heavy.
hinoki 6y ago
I saw this sitting in what looked like a brutalist parking spot when out Christmas shopping. There was no label or explanation, so I thought it was some artwork being moved somewhere. Thanks HN for providing an explanation. Google maps with some more amateur pictures: https://goo.gl/maps/yP1XYay2fCKvFEV29 https://goo.gl/maps/yP1XYay2fCKvFEV29
LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
My first association was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_White https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_White, the second https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeforce_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeforce_(film) As in https://cdn.flickeringmyth.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/lifeforce-3-2.jpg https://cdn.flickeringmyth.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/li... :-)

110 points by polm23 6y ago

Looks really cool. They even play music for the plant! I'm running several aquariums at home between 17 and 240 litres that I try to run with as little intervention as possible, so I'm quite interested in self-sustaining minuature "ecosystems". In aquariums the plant growth is usually the one thing that requires intervention, as some plant species (especially stem plants and floating plants) will completely overrun the ecosystem within weeks if not trimmed back, and they often will shade the other plants causing them to become stunted or die off entirely. Aquarists or aquascapers (which is a trend that in its modern interpretation also originated in Japan) will often take pride in being able to grow rare or demanding plant species in their tanks. In some cases this can require holding a lot of parameters in balance: Light, micro- & macro-nutrients (in the water and in the soil), water hardness, PH and temperature.

jimnotgym 6y ago
I have been following this movement on YouTube. It looks fascinating. A lot more interesting to me than the bonsai installation. I have an aesthetic and a practical concern. Practically pines (and many others) naturally have a dormant period over the winter, which is amongst the reasons why bonsai live outside. Some trees die without it. It also looks like a great environment for fungal growth! Aesthetically this is more like seeing a person on life support than seeing them alive. Like bonsai tree in the matrix. I guess this is just an art installation though, but I hope they don't kill the tree.
qwantim1 6y ago
My one experiment in setting up a natural ecosystem in a small aquarium went horribly wrong, with organic sediment floating all around in the tank. Natural freshwater aquariums that are setup properly look beautiful compared to the majority of aquariums for freshwater that are just gravel, but setup and water changes take much more planning, access to materials, and talent than I found that I have.
- ThePhysicist 6y ago
  I only change water at the beginning when setting up a new aquarium, once it's stable I do a water change maybe every 3-6 months. The small tanks have a lot of evaporation as well so every week I add 2-4 litres of fresh water to them, so additional water changes are not really needed. If you have a large number of healthy plants in the aquarium and enough filter surface there's usually no problem with nitrate/nitrite buildup. I know people that run their aquariums for decades without a water change (replacing evaporated water of course), so it's definitely possible. You can't agressively use fertilizer though in that case. Most aquascapers use "estimative index" fertilization method where they usually strongly overdose fertilizer to ensure no plant has any nutrient deficiencies, this then makes regular water changes necessary as inevitably there will be a buildup of organics or nutrients otherwise. Personally I found that with most plants you don't need to do that. In most of my aquariums I also don't use organic soil and instead put a combination of volcanic (anorganic) rock and gravel. Works quite well for most plants and if you have enough fish in the aquarium they will produce almost all necessary organics for your plants to thrive.
  - studius 6y ago
    How would you approach setting up and maintaining the following nano-aquascape, with an outcome similar to the Walstad method[1][2]: * freshwater 11.3L natural tank, ranging 9.5L - 11L through evaporation * no powered filtration, aeration, and optimally without a water heater * little if any sunlight * water temperature in tank may range 18.3C to 24.9C through each year * 1 or more aquatic creatures, preferably one creature living a few or more years, removed within a day if they die and replaced within 3 weeks * no water changes after 2-3 months of stabilization initially * no more than a few hours of initial setup * little maintenance required to sustain itself as described other than topping tank with inexpensive bottled spring water * high probability of sustaining itself within these constraints for many years I read and experienced that smaller tanks are harder to setup with 10cm of sand possibly needed for Walstad method that size tank[3]. In "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium" and on her site, Walstad writes that she had success with 3.8L and 7.6L tanks using her Dry Start Method[4] to setup the plants, and then hosted shrimp. However, as interesting a shrimp are, my experience with ghost shrimp was that they were inexpensive, looked lively, and then died suddenly within weeks. She speaks of red cherry shrimp, which I've not found locally. I recommend her site[5] which has a lot of information about Planted Aquariums along with the latest corrections for her book; she also describes how she bred guppies in 12 gallon plastic tubs without any filtration or aeration[6] outdoors 15.5C-25.5°F. [1]- https://amazon.com/dp/B00DB94K5I https://amazon.com/dp/B00DB94K5I [2]- http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/wiki/Walstad_method http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/wiki/Walstad_method [3]- https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/setting-up-3-gallon-walstad-bowl.297688/ https://www.fishlore.com/aquariumfishforum/threads/setting-u... [4]- https://dianawalstad.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/shrimprcs2017.pdf https://dianawalstad.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/shrimprcs20... [5]- https://dianawalstad.com/aquariums/ https://dianawalstad.com/aquariums/ [6]- https://dianawalstad.files.wordpress.com/2020/08/small-scale-breeding-aug2020.pdf https://dianawalstad.files.wordpress.com/2020/08/small-scale...
christiansakai 6y ago
Fellow aquascapers here! I went from Walstad mode to high-tech slow growing plants ADA style. Both are surprisingly low maintenance and algae free. I just change the water, do some ferts, and feed the fish. I think I can bypass changing the water if I want to.
Vervious 6y ago
It's crazy how much and how little maintenance a high-tech aquascape needs. I just got back from a six-week trip and all the stems and carpet are completely overgrown, but algae is still minimal and the fish and shrimp are none-the-wiser.
- petre 6y ago
  What do your shripm and fush eat?algae, dead plants exclysively? I'm just changing the water in onne of my low tech aquariums as we speak. I have RCS, Boraras and Otos in them.

bloak 6y ago

Apparently the oldest known closed terrarium has been sealed since 1972: search for "David Latimer" and "terrarium". Apparently they were popular around 1960 so I'm disappointed they can't find one that's been going since 1960.

jgwil2 6y ago
I'll save you a search: https://biologicperformance.com/sealed-bottle-terrarium-garden-watered-once-53-years/ https://biologicperformance.com/sealed-bottle-terrarium-gard... Funnily enough just stumbled across this the other day.
- SulfurHexaFluri 6y ago
  This is probably the most interesting thing I have seen in a long time. This just seems like something that simply shouldn't be possible. I tried looking up more info but most of the results are this guy. Does anyone know if it really is as simple as putting some dirt and water in a pot or are there more specific requirements for it to work?
pvaldes 6y ago
I guarantee you that anybody could obtain the same results. Latimer's terrarium is not a very good example IMAO. Why?, because is the opposite of a landscape. There is not design or arrangement possible. The plant just will fill all the available volume and kill any other species in the bottle. The plant inside that bottle is Tradescantia fluminensis. A South American weed that is popular indoors. Can store water in the stems and stand dry periods. Will shrink and regrow and multiply later from tiny chunks of the stem. Is an invasive species in Australia and Europe that will be destroyed only by frost.

pvaldes 6y ago

Too expensive in terms of energy for most homes probably, but I could see it perfectly being hired as a tree hospital to recover valuable bonsai specimens in urban areas where maintaining and finding space for a bigger greenhouse can be complicated Would be also a good anti-theft device. It looks heavy.

hinoki 6y ago

I saw this sitting in what looked like a brutalist parking spot when out Christmas shopping. There was no label or explanation, so I thought it was some artwork being moved somewhere. Thanks HN for providing an explanation. Google maps with some more amateur pictures: https://goo.gl/maps/yP1XYay2fCKvFEV29 https://goo.gl/maps/yP1XYay2fCKvFEV29

LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago

My first association was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_White https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_White, the second https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeforce_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeforce_(film) As in https://cdn.flickeringmyth.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/lifeforce-3-2.jpg https://cdn.flickeringmyth.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/li... :-)