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Tbh this sounds more like “we dont need all these newfangled tools, in my day we just ...” writing software is complex, you do actually need sophisticated tool

Tbh this sounds more like “we dont need all these newfangled tools, in my day we just ...” writing software is complex, you do actually need sophisticated tools. Saying the language is simple just moves the complexity somewhere else. I say having many of the hard problems be solved by the language itself and its much larger development community is much better than just heaping it on the individual programmers (who might then get it wrong).

flohofwoe 6y ago
That's the wrong impression, C already fills that "in my days" niche nicely (and it does it well) ;) Zig enforces correctness in a lot of places, it doesn't have C's sloppy implicit type conversions, it's impossible to accidentally use uninitialized data, it has "proper" arrays and slices with range checking, it enforces to handle return values, it has a proper error-handling system, etc etc... But it's quite hard to balance "correctness" with "convenience", Zig has placed itself somewhere between "hippie C" and "extremist Rust". When it comes to enforcing correctness, it's much closer to Rust than C though.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
> writing software is complex, you do actually need sophisticated tools. Eh, in my experience people mostly use 'sophisticated tools' because either their language doesn't do enough to help them out or the just really like making things more complicated than they need to be. Like, watch Casey Muratori develop a game in front of a live audience with C++ using a text editor, compiler, and a debugger. Or Jonathan Blow developing a compiler in C++ and a game in his own language using a text editor, a compiler, and a debugger.
- mangecoeur 6y ago
  Actually I think this kind of example is exactly the problem: people think that if Jonathan Blow can do it with a plain text editor, anyone can. But Mr Blow is one of the very best in his field, the vast majority of programmers are not at that level. So they need languages and tools to help them out.

flohofwoe 6y ago

That's the wrong impression, C already fills that "in my days" niche nicely (and it does it well) ;) Zig enforces correctness in a lot of places, it doesn't have C's sloppy implicit type conversions, it's impossible to accidentally use uninitialized data, it has "proper" arrays and slices with range checking, it enforces to handle return values, it has a proper error-handling system, etc etc... But it's quite hard to balance "correctness" with "convenience", Zig has placed itself somewhere between "hippie C" and "extremist Rust". When it comes to enforcing correctness, it's much closer to Rust than C though.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago

> writing software is complex, you do actually need sophisticated tools. Eh, in my experience people mostly use 'sophisticated tools' because either their language doesn't do enough to help them out or the just really like making things more complicated than they need to be. Like, watch Casey Muratori develop a game in front of a live audience with C++ using a text editor, compiler, and a debugger. Or Jonathan Blow developing a compiler in C++ and a game in his own language using a text editor, a compiler, and a debugger.

mangecoeur 6y ago
Actually I think this kind of example is exactly the problem: people think that if Jonathan Blow can do it with a plain text editor, anyone can. But Mr Blow is one of the very best in his field, the vast majority of programmers are not at that level. So they need languages and tools to help them out.