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One thing you may be missing is that a lot of the work usability over the past decade was not with Java itself, but rather other JVM languages. As far as perfo

by 14u2c 6y ago

One thing you may be missing is that a lot of the work usability over the past decade was not with Java itself, but rather other JVM languages. As far as performance there is no doubt that the modern JVM is quite fast. Vert.x benchmarks are consistently on par with Actix and other low level frameworks.

mickael-kerjean 6y ago
> As far as performance there is no doubt that the modern JVM is quite fast As a non Java developer, the reason I don't touch anything Java related is because of popular applications like: 1. Eclipse and Jdeveloper which you have time to get a coffee before any of them boot up 2. solr/elastic search: 8 core and 16GB of RAM as a minimum requirement on a DEV machine, that's insane when sqlite can do basic full text search on the cheapest raspberry pi 3. Jenkins which can't run a few jobs without using many GB of memory. Other CI/CD I've used and was made in Java were also dog slow and painful in so many way: IBM urban code and another one made by oracle which was well oracle 4. the arduino IDE which often freeze my laptop forcing me to ctrl+alt+suppr 5. oracle DB: internally refer as the beast by people who deal with it, I wasn't able to run a local copy on my machine as my work laptop don't match their 256GB of RAM server we have for the dev environment. 6. boot time which make it almost unusable for CLI type of application 7. Oracle Maybe you can make fast and efficient Java application but the highly visible ones aren't that good if you don't need all those complicated features. On the contrary, applications made in Go/Rust tend to run fine on my machine or the cheapest server.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  > Eclipse and Jdeveloper which you have time to get a coffee before any of them boot up I just take to time to wait for one of those Rust builds to finish > solr/elastic search: 8 core and 16GB of RAM as a minimum requirement on a DEV machine, that's insane when sqlite can do basic full text search on the cheapest raspberry pi Definitly not the hardware requirements of a 2011 dev workstation, the first time I used Solr, and as such also not the requirements of using it in 2021. > Jenkins which can't run a few jobs without using many GB of memory. Other CI/CD I've used and was made in Java were also dog slow and painful in so many way: IBM urban code and another one made by oracle which was well oracle So which alternative are you using with similar capabilities and less hardware resources? > the arduino IDE which often freeze my laptop forcing me to ctrl+alt+suppr XCode does it all the time, and is pure native code, in a mix of C and Objective-C code. > . boot time which make it almost unusable for CLI type of application Learn to use AOT compilers for Java. > Oracle Partner in crime alongside Sun and IBM in making Java widespread, having a RDMS that allows for stored procedures in Java, responsible for sponsoring research work to prove it is possible to write high quality JIT compilers in Java, did more for Java than Google would ever done for it, if they actually bothered to buy Sun.
- acdha 6y ago
  > 2. solr/elastic search: 8 core and 16GB of RAM as a minimum requirement on a DEV machine, that's insane when sqlite can do basic full text search on the cheapest raspberry pi You would need to be using the production server settings and traffic volume for this to be true. I run both - sometimes simultaneously - on a 2012 MacBook Air with 8GB and rarely even notice them running. Unless you’re hammering the system with expensive requests these less memory than Gmail in Chrome.
  - mickael-kerjean 6y ago
    That's the requirement for dev, prod is double that: https://www.google.com/search?q=elastic+search+hardware+requirements https://www.google.com/search?q=elastic+search+hardware+requ...
    - acdha 6y ago
      Those figures Google highlights are for a Palo Alto product which uses ElasticSearch. Speaking from experience, that is much higher than necessary - usually the 1GB default is more than enough for development use and even production for lighter usage. The general figure to care about is index size - if you’re indexing hundreds of GB in development you might have problems fitting it on a laptop but otherwise this is not excessive or unusual given the massive feature set.

by 14u2c 6y ago

mickael-kerjean 6y ago

> As far as performance there is no doubt that the modern JVM is quite fast As a non Java developer, the reason I don't touch anything Java related is because of popular applications like: 1. Eclipse and Jdeveloper which you have time to get a coffee before any of them boot up 2. solr/elastic search: 8 core and 16GB of RAM as a minimum requirement on a DEV machine, that's insane when sqlite can do basic full text search on the cheapest raspberry pi 3. Jenkins which can't run a few jobs without using many GB of memory. Other CI/CD I've used and was made in Java were also dog slow and painful in so many way: IBM urban code and another one made by oracle which was well oracle 4. the arduino IDE which often freeze my laptop forcing me to ctrl+alt+suppr 5. oracle DB: internally refer as the beast by people who deal with it, I wasn't able to run a local copy on my machine as my work laptop don't match their 256GB of RAM server we have for the dev environment. 6. boot time which make it almost unusable for CLI type of application 7. Oracle Maybe you can make fast and efficient Java application but the highly visible ones aren't that good if you don't need all those complicated features. On the contrary, applications made in Go/Rust tend to run fine on my machine or the cheapest server.

pjmlp 6y ago
> Eclipse and Jdeveloper which you have time to get a coffee before any of them boot up I just take to time to wait for one of those Rust builds to finish > solr/elastic search: 8 core and 16GB of RAM as a minimum requirement on a DEV machine, that's insane when sqlite can do basic full text search on the cheapest raspberry pi Definitly not the hardware requirements of a 2011 dev workstation, the first time I used Solr, and as such also not the requirements of using it in 2021. > Jenkins which can't run a few jobs without using many GB of memory. Other CI/CD I've used and was made in Java were also dog slow and painful in so many way: IBM urban code and another one made by oracle which was well oracle So which alternative are you using with similar capabilities and less hardware resources? > the arduino IDE which often freeze my laptop forcing me to ctrl+alt+suppr XCode does it all the time, and is pure native code, in a mix of C and Objective-C code. > . boot time which make it almost unusable for CLI type of application Learn to use AOT compilers for Java. > Oracle Partner in crime alongside Sun and IBM in making Java widespread, having a RDMS that allows for stored procedures in Java, responsible for sponsoring research work to prove it is possible to write high quality JIT compilers in Java, did more for Java than Google would ever done for it, if they actually bothered to buy Sun.
acdha 6y ago
> 2. solr/elastic search: 8 core and 16GB of RAM as a minimum requirement on a DEV machine, that's insane when sqlite can do basic full text search on the cheapest raspberry pi You would need to be using the production server settings and traffic volume for this to be true. I run both - sometimes simultaneously - on a 2012 MacBook Air with 8GB and rarely even notice them running. Unless you’re hammering the system with expensive requests these less memory than Gmail in Chrome.
- mickael-kerjean 6y ago
  That's the requirement for dev, prod is double that: https://www.google.com/search?q=elastic+search+hardware+requirements https://www.google.com/search?q=elastic+search+hardware+requ...
  - acdha 6y ago
    Those figures Google highlights are for a Palo Alto product which uses ElasticSearch. Speaking from experience, that is much higher than necessary - usually the 1GB default is more than enough for development use and even production for lighter usage. The general figure to care about is index size - if you’re indexing hundreds of GB in development you might have problems fitting it on a laptop but otherwise this is not excessive or unusual given the massive feature set.