4 ms·

The State Department does not have the credibility to make statements like this right now.

by bredren 6y ago

option 6y ago
The truth track record of State Department is still much better than that of CCP.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > The truth track record of State Department is still much better than that of CCP. Maybe over the long run, but maybe not the current State Department at this moment. IIRC, over the last month it's literally been trying to stir up shit however it can to make things difficult for the incoming Biden administration. The current administration seems to think it makes sense to burn US national credibility for petty, self-interested not-even-wins.
  - option 6y ago
    State department have warned about poor security at WIV before COVID-19 outbreak https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-dep...
    - nerdponx 6y ago
      These are not mutually exclusive.
    - Elof 6y ago
      This is most definitely not before the COVID-19 outbreak
      - vanattab 6y ago
        I think there were some state department cables 2 years before the outbreak. https://www.foxnews.com/world/state-department-cables-coronavirus-origin-chinese-lab-bats https://www.foxnews.com/world/state-department-cables-corona...
      - rllearneratwork 6y ago
        did you even read the article? It literally starts with: "Two years before the novel coronavirus pandemic upended the world, U.S. Embassy officials visited a Chinese research facility in the city of Wuhan several times and sent two official warnings back to Washington about inadequate safety at the lab..."
  - peteretep 6y ago
    > it's literally been trying to stir up shit however it can to make things difficult for the incoming Biden administration Examples, please? Pompeo certainly taking a more hawkish and strident stance of late, but I’m yet to see anything that suggests they’re salting the earth rather than just trying to ram through some policy aims at the end of an administration
    - platinumrad 6y ago
      How about declaring Cuba to be a state sponsor of terrorism in the final weeks of Trump's term for no discernable reason at all.
    - ardy42 6y ago
      Jan. 9: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/us/politics/state-dept-taiwan-united-states-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/us/politics/state-dept-ta... > WASHINGTON — The United States said on Saturday that it would relax its restrictions on interactions between American officials and their counterparts in Taiwan as the Trump administration seeks to lock in a tougher line against Beijing in its final days. > ...The moves, some outside experts said, are meant to lay a trap for Mr. Biden, forcing him either to pay a domestic political cost if he unwinds them or to sour relations with Beijing if he does not. Jan. 11: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/11/us/politics/cuba-terrorism-trump-pompeo.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/11/us/politics/cuba-terroris... > WASHINGTON — The State Department designated Cuba a state sponsor of terrorism on Monday in a last-minute foreign policy stroke that will complicate the incoming Biden administration’s plans to restore friendlier relations with Havana. > ...On the campaign trail, President-elect Joseph R. Biden Jr. spoke of a return to Mr. Obama’s more open approach to Havana, pledging to “promptly reverse the failed Trump policies that have inflicted harm on the Cuban people and done nothing to advance democracy and human rights.” > While the Biden administration can remove Cuba from the terrorism list, doing so will require a review process that could take months. Jan 12: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/12/us/politics/pompeo-iran-qaeda-terror.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/12/us/politics/pompeo-iran-q... > WASHINGTON — Al Qaeda’s new base of operations is in Iran, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said on Tuesday, using his last days in office to tie together two of what he called the world’s greatest terrorism threats but offering no underlying intelligence as evidence. ---- https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/14/opinion/mike-pompeo-state-department.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/14/opinion/mike-pompeo-state... > But Mr. Pompeo has not been idle. Over the past week, he unleashed a series of actions whose only real purpose appears to be to make life as difficult as possible for his successor at the State Department. He put Cuba back on the list of state sponsors of terrorism, he plans to designate the Houthi rebels in Yemen as a foreign terrorist organization, he eased restrictions on contacts between American diplomats and Taiwan officials and he claimed that Iran is a “home base” for Al Qaeda. > ...Some of the actions Mr. Pompeo took over the past week might be defensible, were they taken in the context of a coherent foreign policy. But coming days before a change in administration, their sole identifiable purpose is to maliciously plant obstacles — some commentators have called them time bombs or booby traps — before the incoming administration and President-elect Joe Biden’s choice for Mr. Pompeo’s successor at State, Antony Blinken, are in place.
- D13Fd 6y ago
  That's definitely true. But that's not the issue. China, right now, is an adversary of the United States, and the current administration has been doing everything it could to pin the "China virus" on them. The fact that they are now willing, immediately before a change in administration, to make the allegation in a slightly-more-official capacity means nothing to me. They beat that drum for the past six months with no evidence and no consistent story, and now they issue a statement full of supposition and loose circumstantial evidence. So what?
SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
I know how fashionable it is to shit on the USA, at least for another week. But you are implying the CCP does have credibility in their claims this is not true? What advantage do you think the state dept has to put this out if it is not true? The new admin can walk it back in 1/2 a second if that’s the case.
- geofft 6y ago
  Note that Pompeo is also alleging a link between Iran and al-Qaeda (see the https://www.state.gov https://www.state.gov home page, for instance), which is another "extraordinary claim" - nobody has been seriously worried about al-Qaeda in a long while, and Iran has not been historically aligned with them. If Pompeo is running for president in 2024, a war with Iran will benefit him in much the same way the war with Iraq (which was based on untrue claims) benefited Bush. It's in his interest (both in the sense of a personal interest and in the sense of consistent with his neoconservative / hawkish beliefs, which are much stronger than Trump's) to sour the relationship with Iran and also to prepare the American people for the idea that we should be going to war with them.
  - SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
    > If Pompeo is running for president in 2024, a war with Iran will benefit him in much the same way the war with Iraq (which was based on untrue claims) benefited Bush. Was the war Dick Cheney started going years before Bush announced he was running? How would this be comparable at all to Bush/Iraq?
    - geofft 6y ago
      Cheney was Secretary of Defense during the first Iraq war, under the elder Bush: https://history.defense.gov/Multimedia/Biographies/Article-View/Article/571284/richard-b-cheney/ https://history.defense.gov/Multimedia/Biographies/Article-V... > After the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, Cheney worried about the dangers of nuclear proliferation and effective control of nuclear weapons from the Soviet nuclear arsenal that had come under the control of newly independent republics-Belarus, Ukraine, and Kazakhstan-as well as in Russia itself. Cheney warned about the possibility that other nations, such as Iraq, Iran, and North Korea, would acquire nuclear components after the Soviet collapse. and later in that biography: > A draft Defense Planning Guidance issued early in 1992 envisioned several scenarios in which the United States might have to fight two large regional wars at one time–for example, against Iraq again, against North Korea, or in Europe against a resurgent, expansionist Russia. Come Cheney's vice presidency, there was all of a sudden talk about an "axis of evil" - Iraq, Iran, and North Korea. Anyway, obviously Pompeo hasn't announced, but there is widespread speculation based on concrete actions by him - see e.g. https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2020-12-09/mike-pompeo-turns-presidential-transition-to-his-advantage https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2020-12-09/mi... - so I don't think it's unreasonable for me to say "If Pompeo is running." And the most direct way it would be comparable to Bush/Iraq is that it would falsely allege that al-Qaeda is linked to the government of a Middle Eastern country and use it as an excuse for regime change in that country.
D13Fd 6y ago
This is exactly why trust and credibility is so essential. I want to believe that they have the evidence to back this up, and that we can trust what the administration says. But the United States has been trashing its own credibility on the international stage ever since 9/11 & weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The Trump administration did nothing to help this. It's so easy to lose credibility and so hard to build it back. I wish we would stop blowing our credibility by making politically motivated statements without the evidence to back them up.
mhh__ 6y ago
This one obviously has a result in mind (i.e. Trump almost definitely believes his own rhetoric if Tillerson's statements are anything to by), but if they end up publishing a properly weighty document like the Mueller report I will take it seriously.

The State Department does not have the credibility to make statements like this right now.

option 6y ago

The truth track record of State Department is still much better than that of CCP.

ardy42 6y ago
> The truth track record of State Department is still much better than that of CCP. Maybe over the long run, but maybe not the current State Department at this moment. IIRC, over the last month it's literally been trying to stir up shit however it can to make things difficult for the incoming Biden administration. The current administration seems to think it makes sense to burn US national credibility for petty, self-interested not-even-wins.
- option 6y ago
  State department have warned about poor security at WIV before COVID-19 outbreak https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-dep...
  - nerdponx 6y ago
    These are not mutually exclusive.
  - Elof 6y ago
    This is most definitely not before the COVID-19 outbreak
    - vanattab 6y ago
      I think there were some state department cables 2 years before the outbreak. https://www.foxnews.com/world/state-department-cables-coronavirus-origin-chinese-lab-bats https://www.foxnews.com/world/state-department-cables-corona...
    - rllearneratwork 6y ago
      did you even read the article? It literally starts with: "Two years before the novel coronavirus pandemic upended the world, U.S. Embassy officials visited a Chinese research facility in the city of Wuhan several times and sent two official warnings back to Washington about inadequate safety at the lab..."
- peteretep 6y ago
  > it's literally been trying to stir up shit however it can to make things difficult for the incoming Biden administration Examples, please? Pompeo certainly taking a more hawkish and strident stance of late, but I’m yet to see anything that suggests they’re salting the earth rather than just trying to ram through some policy aims at the end of an administration
  - platinumrad 6y ago
    How about declaring Cuba to be a state sponsor of terrorism in the final weeks of Trump's term for no discernable reason at all.
  - ardy42 6y ago
    Jan. 9: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/us/politics/state-dept-taiwan-united-states-china.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/09/us/politics/state-dept-ta... > WASHINGTON — The United States said on Saturday that it would relax its restrictions on interactions between American officials and their counterparts in Taiwan as the Trump administration seeks to lock in a tougher line against Beijing in its final days. > ...The moves, some outside experts said, are meant to lay a trap for Mr. Biden, forcing him either to pay a domestic political cost if he unwinds them or to sour relations with Beijing if he does not. Jan. 11: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/11/us/politics/cuba-terrorism-trump-pompeo.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/11/us/politics/cuba-terroris... > WASHINGTON — The State Department designated Cuba a state sponsor of terrorism on Monday in a last-minute foreign policy stroke that will complicate the incoming Biden administration’s plans to restore friendlier relations with Havana. > ...On the campaign trail, President-elect Joseph R. Biden Jr. spoke of a return to Mr. Obama’s more open approach to Havana, pledging to “promptly reverse the failed Trump policies that have inflicted harm on the Cuban people and done nothing to advance democracy and human rights.” > While the Biden administration can remove Cuba from the terrorism list, doing so will require a review process that could take months. Jan 12: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/12/us/politics/pompeo-iran-qaeda-terror.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/12/us/politics/pompeo-iran-q... > WASHINGTON — Al Qaeda’s new base of operations is in Iran, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said on Tuesday, using his last days in office to tie together two of what he called the world’s greatest terrorism threats but offering no underlying intelligence as evidence. ---- https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/14/opinion/mike-pompeo-state-department.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/14/opinion/mike-pompeo-state... > But Mr. Pompeo has not been idle. Over the past week, he unleashed a series of actions whose only real purpose appears to be to make life as difficult as possible for his successor at the State Department. He put Cuba back on the list of state sponsors of terrorism, he plans to designate the Houthi rebels in Yemen as a foreign terrorist organization, he eased restrictions on contacts between American diplomats and Taiwan officials and he claimed that Iran is a “home base” for Al Qaeda. > ...Some of the actions Mr. Pompeo took over the past week might be defensible, were they taken in the context of a coherent foreign policy. But coming days before a change in administration, their sole identifiable purpose is to maliciously plant obstacles — some commentators have called them time bombs or booby traps — before the incoming administration and President-elect Joe Biden’s choice for Mr. Pompeo’s successor at State, Antony Blinken, are in place.
D13Fd 6y ago
That's definitely true. But that's not the issue. China, right now, is an adversary of the United States, and the current administration has been doing everything it could to pin the "China virus" on them. The fact that they are now willing, immediately before a change in administration, to make the allegation in a slightly-more-official capacity means nothing to me. They beat that drum for the past six months with no evidence and no consistent story, and now they issue a statement full of supposition and loose circumstantial evidence. So what?

SV_BubbleTime 6y ago

I know how fashionable it is to shit on the USA, at least for another week. But you are implying the CCP does have credibility in their claims this is not true? What advantage do you think the state dept has to put this out if it is not true? The new admin can walk it back in 1/2 a second if that’s the case.

geofft 6y ago
Note that Pompeo is also alleging a link between Iran and al-Qaeda (see the https://www.state.gov https://www.state.gov home page, for instance), which is another "extraordinary claim" - nobody has been seriously worried about al-Qaeda in a long while, and Iran has not been historically aligned with them. If Pompeo is running for president in 2024, a war with Iran will benefit him in much the same way the war with Iraq (which was based on untrue claims) benefited Bush. It's in his interest (both in the sense of a personal interest and in the sense of consistent with his neoconservative / hawkish beliefs, which are much stronger than Trump's) to sour the relationship with Iran and also to prepare the American people for the idea that we should be going to war with them.
- SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
  > If Pompeo is running for president in 2024, a war with Iran will benefit him in much the same way the war with Iraq (which was based on untrue claims) benefited Bush. Was the war Dick Cheney started going years before Bush announced he was running? How would this be comparable at all to Bush/Iraq?
  - geofft 6y ago
    Cheney was Secretary of Defense during the first Iraq war, under the elder Bush: https://history.defense.gov/Multimedia/Biographies/Article-View/Article/571284/richard-b-cheney/ https://history.defense.gov/Multimedia/Biographies/Article-V... > After the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, Cheney worried about the dangers of nuclear proliferation and effective control of nuclear weapons from the Soviet nuclear arsenal that had come under the control of newly independent republics-Belarus, Ukraine, and Kazakhstan-as well as in Russia itself. Cheney warned about the possibility that other nations, such as Iraq, Iran, and North Korea, would acquire nuclear components after the Soviet collapse. and later in that biography: > A draft Defense Planning Guidance issued early in 1992 envisioned several scenarios in which the United States might have to fight two large regional wars at one time–for example, against Iraq again, against North Korea, or in Europe against a resurgent, expansionist Russia. Come Cheney's vice presidency, there was all of a sudden talk about an "axis of evil" - Iraq, Iran, and North Korea. Anyway, obviously Pompeo hasn't announced, but there is widespread speculation based on concrete actions by him - see e.g. https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2020-12-09/mike-pompeo-turns-presidential-transition-to-his-advantage https://www.usnews.com/news/elections/articles/2020-12-09/mi... - so I don't think it's unreasonable for me to say "If Pompeo is running." And the most direct way it would be comparable to Bush/Iraq is that it would falsely allege that al-Qaeda is linked to the government of a Middle Eastern country and use it as an excuse for regime change in that country.

D13Fd 6y ago

This is exactly why trust and credibility is so essential. I want to believe that they have the evidence to back this up, and that we can trust what the administration says. But the United States has been trashing its own credibility on the international stage ever since 9/11 & weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The Trump administration did nothing to help this. It's so easy to lose credibility and so hard to build it back. I wish we would stop blowing our credibility by making politically motivated statements without the evidence to back them up.

mhh__ 6y ago

This one obviously has a result in mind (i.e. Trump almost definitely believes his own rhetoric if Tillerson's statements are anything to by), but if they end up publishing a properly weighty document like the Mueller report I will take it seriously.