6 ms·

> The agency has investigated 13 of the deaths so far and concluded that common adverse reactions of mRNA vaccines, such as fever, nausea, and diarrhoea, may ha

by skzv 6y ago

> The agency has investigated 13 of the deaths so far and concluded that common adverse reactions of mRNA vaccines, such as fever, nausea, and diarrhoea, may have contributed to fatal outcomes in some of the frail patients. We have known that the vaccines can cause a strong immune response, is it really unbelievable it can kill very frail patients?

sharken 6y ago
Certainly not, which begs the question: Should the vaccine be administered to all, it seems that no is the right answer at the moment.
- DavidVoid 6y ago
  This is a simple trolley problem and it's the same for basically all medications and medical procedures. You either do nothing (don't vaccinate) and lots of people die, or you pull the lever (vaccinate) and maybe a few people die from rare side-effects, but many more are saved by eliminating the virus.
  - bleah1000 6y ago
    Or, you avoid vaccines for people at high risk of dying from the vaccine. Then you let herd immunity work. The question is what percentage chance do you have of dying from the vaccine versus getting the virus. Unfortunately, that's going to be hard to tell. We probably are not going to give vaccines to immunocompromised people because the chance of a bad reaction are likely higher than the chance of getting the virus. The people who died are likely now in the category of don't vaccinate.
    - wussboy 6y ago
      This really highlights the importance of herd immunity and why I will be front of the line for vaccine when they are available to me.
      - lldbg 6y ago
        It is currently uncertain[a,b] if the vaccines prevent the spread of corona, and logically therefore it is unknown if the vaccinations contribute towards herd immunity or not. [a]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/can-you-still-spread-covid-19-after-you-get-vaccinated-11610379107 https://www.wsj.com/articles/can-you-still-spread-covid-19-a... [b]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/08/health/covid-vaccine-mask.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/08/health/covid-vaccine-mask...
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
- eloff 6y ago
  Covid19 kills at a rate of 10-20% in that age group. What's the bigger risk to them do you think? People who can't do math with risks drive me crazy. No offense meant to you, it's just a button I have lately after arguing with my parents about the risks of the vaccine.
  - splittingTimes 6y ago
    You have to multiply your 10-20% with the probability to actually contract covid.
    - junipertea 6y ago
      Given the prevalence of COVID in all countries (i.e. almost 10% of population of my country were infected already), it is not that low and will only go up exponentially as governments can't hold lockdowns longer. At some point old people will not be able to avoid contracting the virus, and 10-20% of them will die.
    - eloff 6y ago
      Yes, that's obvious. But that's a risk many orders of magnitude worse than the vaccines given what we've seen so far of them.
  - 0-_-0 6y ago
    You're one of those people. The lowest risk might be to vaccinate the rest of the population, thus stop the spread of COVID and avoid the danger of both COVID and the vaccine for the most vulnerable.
    - freeone3000 6y ago
      We don't have enough vaccine for that.
    - eloff 6y ago
      Governments considered this strategy, but the problem with it how many at risk people would die while we wait to have enough vaccine. I believe not a single country is pursuing this strategy.
- matthewmacleod 6y ago
  it seems that no is the right answer at the moment. What is your basis for saying this?
- loopz 6y ago
  They are indeed skipping the frailest and most sick people after this.
kodyo 6y ago
I'm sure they signed a waiver. The government is safe.
- bendiksolheim 6y ago
  I don’t know where you are from, but you don’t sign waivers for these things in Norway. There might be backlashes if there is consensus that giving these people the vaccine was incautious. As an example (and without linking the safety of these two vaccines), the Norwegian government has paid about 350 MNOK (about 40 million USD) to people with problems after the Pandemrix vaccine. That doesn’t really mean that it will affect the ones who made these decisions though. So in that manner, the current government is probably completely safe.
guilhas 6y ago
And even more interesting because in Russia the priority has been the under 60, health and key workers

by skzv 6y ago

sharken 6y ago

Certainly not, which begs the question: Should the vaccine be administered to all, it seems that no is the right answer at the moment.

DavidVoid 6y ago
This is a simple trolley problem and it's the same for basically all medications and medical procedures. You either do nothing (don't vaccinate) and lots of people die, or you pull the lever (vaccinate) and maybe a few people die from rare side-effects, but many more are saved by eliminating the virus.
- bleah1000 6y ago
  Or, you avoid vaccines for people at high risk of dying from the vaccine. Then you let herd immunity work. The question is what percentage chance do you have of dying from the vaccine versus getting the virus. Unfortunately, that's going to be hard to tell. We probably are not going to give vaccines to immunocompromised people because the chance of a bad reaction are likely higher than the chance of getting the virus. The people who died are likely now in the category of don't vaccinate.
  - wussboy 6y ago
    This really highlights the importance of herd immunity and why I will be front of the line for vaccine when they are available to me.
    - lldbg 6y ago
      It is currently uncertain[a,b] if the vaccines prevent the spread of corona, and logically therefore it is unknown if the vaccinations contribute towards herd immunity or not. [a]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/can-you-still-spread-covid-19-after-you-get-vaccinated-11610379107 https://www.wsj.com/articles/can-you-still-spread-covid-19-a... [b]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/08/health/covid-vaccine-mask.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/08/health/covid-vaccine-mask...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
eloff 6y ago
Covid19 kills at a rate of 10-20% in that age group. What's the bigger risk to them do you think? People who can't do math with risks drive me crazy. No offense meant to you, it's just a button I have lately after arguing with my parents about the risks of the vaccine.
- splittingTimes 6y ago
  You have to multiply your 10-20% with the probability to actually contract covid.
  - junipertea 6y ago
    Given the prevalence of COVID in all countries (i.e. almost 10% of population of my country were infected already), it is not that low and will only go up exponentially as governments can't hold lockdowns longer. At some point old people will not be able to avoid contracting the virus, and 10-20% of them will die.
  - eloff 6y ago
    Yes, that's obvious. But that's a risk many orders of magnitude worse than the vaccines given what we've seen so far of them.
- 0-_-0 6y ago
  You're one of those people. The lowest risk might be to vaccinate the rest of the population, thus stop the spread of COVID and avoid the danger of both COVID and the vaccine for the most vulnerable.
  - freeone3000 6y ago
    We don't have enough vaccine for that.
  - eloff 6y ago
    Governments considered this strategy, but the problem with it how many at risk people would die while we wait to have enough vaccine. I believe not a single country is pursuing this strategy.
matthewmacleod 6y ago
it seems that no is the right answer at the moment. What is your basis for saying this?
loopz 6y ago
They are indeed skipping the frailest and most sick people after this.

kodyo 6y ago

I'm sure they signed a waiver. The government is safe.

bendiksolheim 6y ago
I don’t know where you are from, but you don’t sign waivers for these things in Norway. There might be backlashes if there is consensus that giving these people the vaccine was incautious. As an example (and without linking the safety of these two vaccines), the Norwegian government has paid about 350 MNOK (about 40 million USD) to people with problems after the Pandemrix vaccine. That doesn’t really mean that it will affect the ones who made these decisions though. So in that manner, the current government is probably completely safe.

guilhas 6y ago

And even more interesting because in Russia the priority has been the under 60, health and key workers