3 ms·

> They should be making no less then $20 an hour to start! This is a noble goal, and I am all for seeing it happen. But if you think it won't just give Amazon

> They should be making no less then $20 an hour to start! This is a noble goal, and I am all for seeing it happen. But if you think it won't just give Amazon warehouses a stronger foothold, you are mistaken. I, personally, don't think it is necessarily a bad thing if Amazon warehouses gain more workers due to their conditions becoming better as a result of unionization. But quite a lot of people will disagree with that statement. You know why, despite all those current awful-sounding conditions, people are still signing up to work at Amazon warehouses in droves? And no, it isn't because those workers are dumb and don't know what's better for them or because they are that desperate. It is because warehouse jobs are usually always somewhat hellish, and Amazon warehouse jobs tend to be a bit less hellish than other warehouse jobs, while paying quite a bit more. Bumping the pay up to $20/hr will make it even more not worth it to work any other warehouse jobs, when Amazon ones give you a no-brainer choice that is even better all around than before. Again, not commenting on whether it would be a good or bad thing, just an observation. I, personally, think it would be a good thing if those workers got paid more and got better conditions. But the externalities of that decision (giving Amazon more power) might be a bit too much for a lot of people to swallow. I will admit, I haven't thought about those externalities much past what I have already described in this comment, so I definitely could be missing something. In which case, I would love to learn more about those, if someone has meaningful points to contribute to this discussion in the comments.

maxerickson 6y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25795459 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25795459 links an article about Amazon driving average wages down. Seems likely enough that people working in other warehouses mostly aren't the ones filling Amazon jobs. Do we have some anecdotes about people leaving logistics jobs to go entry level at an Amazon warehouse?
- gruez 6y ago
  >https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25795459 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25795459 links an article about Amazon driving average wages down. That doesn't disprove gp's claim that amazon is better than the existing warehouse jobs, because it could be simpson's paradox at work. eg. let's say before amazon moved in your warehouse jobs you had in an area were the following: * 20 forklift drivers @ $20/hr * 100 pickers at @ $10/hr The average warehouse wage would be $11.67/hr. Now, let's say amazon opened the warehouse and created higher paying jobs (like gp claimed), and the jobs now look like the following: * 30 forklift drivers @ $22/hr * 500 pickers at @ $11/hr Every job's wages went up by 10%, yet the average wage slightly fell to $11.62.
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    Yeah, I didn't say it disproved anything. I wonder what explains A Bloomberg analysis of government labor statistics reveals that in community after community where Amazon sets up shop, warehouse wages tend to fall. In 68 counties where Amazon has opened one of its largest facilities, average industry compensation slips by more than 6% during the facility’s first two years, according to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. In many cases, Amazon quickly becomes the largest logistics player in these counties, so its size and lower pay likely pull down the average. Among economists, there’s a debate about whether the company is creating a kind of monopsony, where there’s only one buyer—or in this case one employer. though. The 'warehouse wages tend to fall' cuts out a bunch of variables, you end up with 'warehouse worker pay', and it goes down. It could be that warehouse jobs tend to pay for tenure or something, but that goes to the question I asked; are people leaving other warehouse job to go work at Amazon? After your edit: I guess picking for $11 is worse than driving a fork lift for $20, so they probably aren't improving overall work conditions if they are hiring so much that the structure of the workforce changes.
paul7986 6y ago
If their wages rise then others will be force to as well! I worked answering phones at Verizon in the early 2000s and their pay there due to being union was top pay for customer service. Comcast was paying me $9 to $12.50 for that work while Verizon paid more then double of my highest wage at Comcast. Overall I got fed up with being yelled at on the phone by customers' of monopoly companies and taught myself web development and design. I'm glad I did so, yet am pro-union per my experience at Verizon vs. Comcast.

maxerickson 6y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25795459 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25795459 links an article about Amazon driving average wages down. Seems likely enough that people working in other warehouses mostly aren't the ones filling Amazon jobs. Do we have some anecdotes about people leaving logistics jobs to go entry level at an Amazon warehouse?

gruez 6y ago
>https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25795459 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25795459 links an article about Amazon driving average wages down. That doesn't disprove gp's claim that amazon is better than the existing warehouse jobs, because it could be simpson's paradox at work. eg. let's say before amazon moved in your warehouse jobs you had in an area were the following: * 20 forklift drivers @ $20/hr * 100 pickers at @ $10/hr The average warehouse wage would be $11.67/hr. Now, let's say amazon opened the warehouse and created higher paying jobs (like gp claimed), and the jobs now look like the following: * 30 forklift drivers @ $22/hr * 500 pickers at @ $11/hr Every job's wages went up by 10%, yet the average wage slightly fell to $11.62.
- maxerickson 6y ago
  Yeah, I didn't say it disproved anything. I wonder what explains A Bloomberg analysis of government labor statistics reveals that in community after community where Amazon sets up shop, warehouse wages tend to fall. In 68 counties where Amazon has opened one of its largest facilities, average industry compensation slips by more than 6% during the facility’s first two years, according to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. In many cases, Amazon quickly becomes the largest logistics player in these counties, so its size and lower pay likely pull down the average. Among economists, there’s a debate about whether the company is creating a kind of monopsony, where there’s only one buyer—or in this case one employer. though. The 'warehouse wages tend to fall' cuts out a bunch of variables, you end up with 'warehouse worker pay', and it goes down. It could be that warehouse jobs tend to pay for tenure or something, but that goes to the question I asked; are people leaving other warehouse job to go work at Amazon? After your edit: I guess picking for $11 is worse than driving a fork lift for $20, so they probably aren't improving overall work conditions if they are hiring so much that the structure of the workforce changes.

paul7986 6y ago

If their wages rise then others will be force to as well! I worked answering phones at Verizon in the early 2000s and their pay there due to being union was top pay for customer service. Comcast was paying me $9 to $12.50 for that work while Verizon paid more then double of my highest wage at Comcast. Overall I got fed up with being yelled at on the phone by customers' of monopoly companies and taught myself web development and design. I'm glad I did so, yet am pro-union per my experience at Verizon vs. Comcast.