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Unions in the US and unions is Europe are completely different. In one they cooperate to see that the company succeeds...and in the other they seek to drive up

Unions in the US and unions is Europe are completely different. In one they cooperate to see that the company succeeds...and in the other they seek to drive up the cost of doing business to the point that shitty products are extremely expensive (GM, Ford). Unions used to be for protecting the workers and ensuring that companies were getting the very best skillsets when hiring. Now they protect the lazy, promote the well connected and drain efficiency from businesses. Longshoreman are the most shining example of how to destroy businesses...Port of Portland is now shuttered because they intentionally slowed down work to the point of forcing companies to go elsewhere. ILWU was hit with a $19M judgment because of the things it did in Portland.

toomuchtodo 6y ago
The quality of a union is a function of membership engagement and organizational structure. Shitty unions, shitty companies, these are all who is in charge and how they're governed and the transparency available. Better to admit we need better operating models for unions (and that unions need to work in partnership with management to create sustainable relationships and businesses), rigorous governance and oversight of them, and that that is likely superior to the current situation of labor's collective power to continue to erode over the last four decades. Not only does labor need a seat at the table, employee ownership should be strongly encouraged through policy (this also financially aligns incentives between management and labor, which is a good thing imho). "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
- j_walter 6y ago
  But in many cases you can't choose which union you have to do business with. Do work at this location you have to do business with this union. Many examples of unions fighting other unions because they think they should get the work. I agree that better operating models could exist (more like European ones)...but the current unions in the US have a lot to lose by doing so.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- zdragnar 6y ago
  It is also a function of "closed shop" unions in the US. Rarely do you get to pick a union to join when you work at a company; if the company workers are represented, it is often exclusively by a single union. The result is that unions have the exact same leverage over employees as the companies themselves do, and do not often have sufficient accountability. It is not as simple as voting a union out once it has gotten in, and it takes on a life of its own. Also, stories like SEIU collaborating with the DFL in Minnesota to get family members of disabled adults declared "in home caretaker employees" of the state so that the union gets a cut of the disability benefits is terrible. There are surely good things that unions can do, but that doesn't mean they are an intrinsic good, or that they are appropriately structured in the US. Edit: reference: https://www.thecentersquare.com/minnesota/after-trump-rule-change-minnesota-home-care-workers-can-decide-for-themselves-whether-to-pay/article_04803098-701b-11e9-9087-a3bc73e9c907.html https://www.thecentersquare.com/minnesota/after-trump-rule-c...
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    So, it sounds like you're agreeing with me? Collective action is admittedly work. The alternative is, as we've seen, worse in my opinion. https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ > From 1979 to 2018, net productivity rose 69.6 percent, while the hourly pay of typical workers essentially stagnated—increasing only 11.6 percent over 39 years (after adjusting for inflation). This means that although Americans are working more productively than ever, the fruits of their labors have primarily accrued to those at the top and to corporate profits, especially in recent years. > Rising productivity provides the potential for substantial growth in the pay for the vast majority. However, this potential has been squandered in recent decades. The income, wages, and wealth generated over the last four decades have failed to “trickle down” to the vast majority largely because policy choices made on behalf of those with the most income, wealth, and power have exacerbated inequality. In essence, rising inequality has prevented potential pay growth from translating into actual pay growth for most workers. The result has been wage stagnation. https://www.brookings.edu/bpea-articles/declining-worker-power-and-american-economic-performance/ https://www.brookings.edu/bpea-articles/declining-worker-pow... > "Declining unionization, increasingly demanding and empowered shareholders, decreasing real minimum wages, reduced worker protections, and the increases in outsourcing domestically and abroad have disempowered workers with profound consequences for the labor market and the broader economy."
random5634 6y ago
I actually know a bit about the german union model. A couple of factors - the overall labor force is pretty highly educated and skilled - so less free riding overall. Strong social safety net - so folks not suited to a job have a place to land with health care etc. a MUCH more cooperate relationship with management -> the unions in Germany at least also want productivity / common sense stuff. In the US, you can have totally illogical and inefficient work rules and unions will keep them on purpose just to drive up bargaining power, even though it hurts everyone (ie, being able to no show for work with no call etc). Not all of europe is the same. The french unions have a different approach than german unions etc.
- j_walter 6y ago
  When I refer to the European model I'm probably talking about the German model. Many years ago the articles I was reading had been going over the VW union so it was likely Germany. The cooperation part and inefficiencies you mention are exactly the problem. Here in the US the union and company are enemies that battle each other...and like you say illogical rules that just benefit the union.
  - random5634 6y ago
    That's a bit of a special case as well - historically overall good relationship even when there were cuts / restructuring in 2017. Situation is very different in places like greece / italy / france even with much more militant unions and more protectionism for sectors. So it's def not EU wide. --- “I cannot complain about the cooperation with the works council,” VW brand chief executive Herbert Diess said at a news conference, citing “very constructive” dealings with the unions. VW’s mass-market brand has been undergoing heavy restructuring since it agreed with the works council on plans to cut 3.7 billion euros ($4.41 billion) of costs per year from 2020 and slash 23,000 jobs in Germany via natural attrition.
    - j_walter 6y ago
      Unfortunately the US auto unions try to capitalize on the good nature and cooperation of the VW union to say that they should unionize the VW plant in Kentucky or Tennessee (I think that was where it was). Saying that VW has unions already so it would be no different...except everyone that knows anything knows better. Greece has terrible unions, but many of those seem to be the public unions like teachers and transportation workers.
pmoriarty 6y ago
"Port of Portland is now shuttered because they intentionally slowed down work to the point of forcing companies to go elsewhere." Unions should be everywhere, so these companies could not escape them by relocating. Capital trying to feel the country should also be taxed heavily for the same reason.
- refurb 6y ago
  Sounds like a planned economy. We know how well that works.
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    China has been doing okay using that sort of high level planning, where the government supervises a lot of the economy and limits the movement of capital.
    - j_walter 6y ago
      You really think that? Talk to any of the chinese citizens that have fled the country to live elsewhere. Certain parts of how that government runs may look good from afar, but not if you are actually living under their rule.
      - maxerickson 6y ago
        I don't think the people have it good, but the economy has grown massively for ~40 years running.
    - refurb 6y ago
      That "sort of planning". But are they requiring unions, taxing all companies and preventing capital from fleeing? No.
      - maxerickson 6y ago
        China has the strictest capital controls there have ever been. The other stuff, sure no, but I wondered if you were making a broader point about a controlled economy, which would be a point that China increasingly contradicts.
purple_ferret 6y ago
>Unions used to be for protecting the workers and ensuring that companies were getting the very best skillsets when hiring. Labor unions in the US formed primarily to combat exploitation by employers, often in the face of great oppression and cronyism that led to literal bloodshed[0]. This is one of the reasons unions can't be part of the companies their members work for, unlike in Europe. Unions in Europe formed from trade unions that had a longstanding history in European economy. That said, all you have to do is look at union activity in France, where there seems to be nationwide strikes every year, to dispel the myth that they are somehow more cooperative or amenable to making concessions. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain
- saiya-jin 6y ago
  French are no measure for strikes, as somebody living just across the borders the norm is some form of strike few months per year, every year. Colleagues can't get to work, public transport goes to standstill so everybody drives (very ecological). Its a double edged sword at best - government is properly afraid of the citizens. But overall the economy suffers badly. This is just a small part of overall french 'package' - high social benefits, its extremely hard to fire people, tons of paid holidays days per year, early retirement etc. Result is startups start elsewhere, companies move away whatever they can (even state semi-owned like car industry). Another result is tons of monopolies, which distort the market and make very small amount of citizens profit at he cost of everybody else. Economy is weak compared to Germany, I would say salaries are 1/2, although there shouldn't be the reason - big smart well educated population. But then comes the french mentality and way of doing things...
- barbecue_sauce 6y ago
  I think you mean exploitation.
  - purple_ferret 6y ago
    i did ty

toomuchtodo 6y ago

The quality of a union is a function of membership engagement and organizational structure. Shitty unions, shitty companies, these are all who is in charge and how they're governed and the transparency available. Better to admit we need better operating models for unions (and that unions need to work in partnership with management to create sustainable relationships and businesses), rigorous governance and oversight of them, and that that is likely superior to the current situation of labor's collective power to continue to erode over the last four decades. Not only does labor need a seat at the table, employee ownership should be strongly encouraged through policy (this also financially aligns incentives between management and labor, which is a good thing imho). "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

j_walter 6y ago
But in many cases you can't choose which union you have to do business with. Do work at this location you have to do business with this union. Many examples of unions fighting other unions because they think they should get the work. I agree that better operating models could exist (more like European ones)...but the current unions in the US have a lot to lose by doing so.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
zdragnar 6y ago
It is also a function of "closed shop" unions in the US. Rarely do you get to pick a union to join when you work at a company; if the company workers are represented, it is often exclusively by a single union. The result is that unions have the exact same leverage over employees as the companies themselves do, and do not often have sufficient accountability. It is not as simple as voting a union out once it has gotten in, and it takes on a life of its own. Also, stories like SEIU collaborating with the DFL in Minnesota to get family members of disabled adults declared "in home caretaker employees" of the state so that the union gets a cut of the disability benefits is terrible. There are surely good things that unions can do, but that doesn't mean they are an intrinsic good, or that they are appropriately structured in the US. Edit: reference: https://www.thecentersquare.com/minnesota/after-trump-rule-change-minnesota-home-care-workers-can-decide-for-themselves-whether-to-pay/article_04803098-701b-11e9-9087-a3bc73e9c907.html https://www.thecentersquare.com/minnesota/after-trump-rule-c...
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  So, it sounds like you're agreeing with me? Collective action is admittedly work. The alternative is, as we've seen, worse in my opinion. https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/ > From 1979 to 2018, net productivity rose 69.6 percent, while the hourly pay of typical workers essentially stagnated—increasing only 11.6 percent over 39 years (after adjusting for inflation). This means that although Americans are working more productively than ever, the fruits of their labors have primarily accrued to those at the top and to corporate profits, especially in recent years. > Rising productivity provides the potential for substantial growth in the pay for the vast majority. However, this potential has been squandered in recent decades. The income, wages, and wealth generated over the last four decades have failed to “trickle down” to the vast majority largely because policy choices made on behalf of those with the most income, wealth, and power have exacerbated inequality. In essence, rising inequality has prevented potential pay growth from translating into actual pay growth for most workers. The result has been wage stagnation. https://www.brookings.edu/bpea-articles/declining-worker-power-and-american-economic-performance/ https://www.brookings.edu/bpea-articles/declining-worker-pow... > "Declining unionization, increasingly demanding and empowered shareholders, decreasing real minimum wages, reduced worker protections, and the increases in outsourcing domestically and abroad have disempowered workers with profound consequences for the labor market and the broader economy."

random5634 6y ago

I actually know a bit about the german union model. A couple of factors - the overall labor force is pretty highly educated and skilled - so less free riding overall. Strong social safety net - so folks not suited to a job have a place to land with health care etc. a MUCH more cooperate relationship with management -> the unions in Germany at least also want productivity / common sense stuff. In the US, you can have totally illogical and inefficient work rules and unions will keep them on purpose just to drive up bargaining power, even though it hurts everyone (ie, being able to no show for work with no call etc). Not all of europe is the same. The french unions have a different approach than german unions etc.

j_walter 6y ago
When I refer to the European model I'm probably talking about the German model. Many years ago the articles I was reading had been going over the VW union so it was likely Germany. The cooperation part and inefficiencies you mention are exactly the problem. Here in the US the union and company are enemies that battle each other...and like you say illogical rules that just benefit the union.
- random5634 6y ago
  That's a bit of a special case as well - historically overall good relationship even when there were cuts / restructuring in 2017. Situation is very different in places like greece / italy / france even with much more militant unions and more protectionism for sectors. So it's def not EU wide. --- “I cannot complain about the cooperation with the works council,” VW brand chief executive Herbert Diess said at a news conference, citing “very constructive” dealings with the unions. VW’s mass-market brand has been undergoing heavy restructuring since it agreed with the works council on plans to cut 3.7 billion euros ($4.41 billion) of costs per year from 2020 and slash 23,000 jobs in Germany via natural attrition.
  - j_walter 6y ago
    Unfortunately the US auto unions try to capitalize on the good nature and cooperation of the VW union to say that they should unionize the VW plant in Kentucky or Tennessee (I think that was where it was). Saying that VW has unions already so it would be no different...except everyone that knows anything knows better. Greece has terrible unions, but many of those seem to be the public unions like teachers and transportation workers.

pmoriarty 6y ago

"Port of Portland is now shuttered because they intentionally slowed down work to the point of forcing companies to go elsewhere." Unions should be everywhere, so these companies could not escape them by relocating. Capital trying to feel the country should also be taxed heavily for the same reason.

refurb 6y ago
Sounds like a planned economy. We know how well that works.
- maxerickson 6y ago
  China has been doing okay using that sort of high level planning, where the government supervises a lot of the economy and limits the movement of capital.
  - j_walter 6y ago
    You really think that? Talk to any of the chinese citizens that have fled the country to live elsewhere. Certain parts of how that government runs may look good from afar, but not if you are actually living under their rule.
    - maxerickson 6y ago
      I don't think the people have it good, but the economy has grown massively for ~40 years running.
  - refurb 6y ago
    That "sort of planning". But are they requiring unions, taxing all companies and preventing capital from fleeing? No.
    - maxerickson 6y ago
      China has the strictest capital controls there have ever been. The other stuff, sure no, but I wondered if you were making a broader point about a controlled economy, which would be a point that China increasingly contradicts.

purple_ferret 6y ago

>Unions used to be for protecting the workers and ensuring that companies were getting the very best skillsets when hiring. Labor unions in the US formed primarily to combat exploitation by employers, often in the face of great oppression and cronyism that led to literal bloodshed[0]. This is one of the reasons unions can't be part of the companies their members work for, unlike in Europe. Unions in Europe formed from trade unions that had a longstanding history in European economy. That said, all you have to do is look at union activity in France, where there seems to be nationwide strikes every year, to dispel the myth that they are somehow more cooperative or amenable to making concessions. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain

saiya-jin 6y ago
French are no measure for strikes, as somebody living just across the borders the norm is some form of strike few months per year, every year. Colleagues can't get to work, public transport goes to standstill so everybody drives (very ecological). Its a double edged sword at best - government is properly afraid of the citizens. But overall the economy suffers badly. This is just a small part of overall french 'package' - high social benefits, its extremely hard to fire people, tons of paid holidays days per year, early retirement etc. Result is startups start elsewhere, companies move away whatever they can (even state semi-owned like car industry). Another result is tons of monopolies, which distort the market and make very small amount of citizens profit at he cost of everybody else. Economy is weak compared to Germany, I would say salaries are 1/2, although there shouldn't be the reason - big smart well educated population. But then comes the french mentality and way of doing things...
barbecue_sauce 6y ago
I think you mean exploitation.
- purple_ferret 6y ago
  i did ty