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But if a person has something important to say, calling people that don't know about the issue assholes is not a great way to go about it. I know there is a wes

But if a person has something important to say, calling people that don't know about the issue assholes is not a great way to go about it. I know there is a western, and especially US/English, bias in tech. But it's not like everyone tries to annoy others, it's more an issue of ignorance. Btw I agree that when Signal says your messages are secure, it should probably do something to warn about ways things still may leak.

cutitout 6y ago
> But if a person has something important to say, calling people that don't know about the issue assholes is not a great way to go about it. I don't mind it at all. If someone uses "being called asshole" as a reason to not even inform anyone, they would have found another excuse. Some people simply register it as strong language and otherwise focus on the content. At any rate, it's very easy to judge what someone says in frustration when you yourself don't even suffer from the situation and/or don't care about those who do. > But it's not like everyone tries to annoy other, it's more an issue of ignorance. So she shed light on that, and instead of talking about the important bit, people think it's super important to teach a random person to not be rude, ever? That's what we're focusing on?
- matsemann 6y ago
  > That's what we're focusing on? That's my point. By presenting the issue the way she did, people moved the conversation away from the issue and instead ended up in a meta-discussion about the discourse. If her points were laid out in a nicer manner, she would be closer to actually achieving her goal.
  - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
    She did that over one year ago and was ignored. Policing her tone instead of addressing the issue that has people getting kidnapped in China is really missing the point.
  - cutitout 6y ago
    > By presenting the issue the way she did, people moved the conversation away from the issue By HER doing A, OTHERS did B? That doesn't even parse as English, and betrays doublethink.
- chickenpotpie 6y ago
  Open source devs are horribly mistreated for a service they provide for free/very low income. I will gladly focus the conversation on someone being rude to someone that has dedicated their life to making the world a better place. Signal is a nonprofit organization dedicated to the betterment of mankind. They want to a good job and they’re not assholes.
  - cutitout 6y ago
    "Making the world a better place" is terribly generic, and not impressive in context of stubbornly refusing to even acknowledge, much less warn users about, an issue that puts actual lives in danger. If they ignored her for so long, what was the excuse before she dared to say "asshole" to adults who dabble with something as serious as this?
the_local_host 6y ago
I'm not sure I'd know about this if the statement wasn't notable for its coarse language. Moreover it's not just a case of criticizing someone who didn't know about the issue, it's criticizing people who are telling people to do something without understanding the risks.
TaylorAlexander 6y ago
She has been ignored for over a year (she tried to get them to discuss the issue in 2019), and all the while people have been getting kidnapped by the Chinese government due to this misunderstanding. I can understand why she would feel upset. I think what set this off was signal responding to questions to some tiny Twitter account after ignoring her for so long.
- bllguo 6y ago
  Can you substantiate this claim? Or is this just "I know someone who was arrested, it had to be the keyboard"?
  - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
    This was Naomi Wu’s claim. She herself has been “taken away for questioning” by the Chinese government (and she shared photos of it) so I have no reason to distrust her claims.
- angry_octet 6y ago
  It is an extreme exageration to say that the Chinese state artitrarily detaining people is due to Signal not working around the IME issue. Let's be clear: the Chinese state detains people all the time, based on many sources of information, probably the least important being interception of keystrokes to Signal in an input method app. They own all the app makers and the app stores. They can push a specific version of an app to a specific person. Frankly it is meaningless to rely on Signal on a device like that. The OWS team is small. They don't have a social media team like big corps do, tracking social issue engagement, what big accounts have tweeted etc, and it is ridiculous and counter-productive to be going off about it.
  - TaylorAlexander 6y ago
    Of course signal is not the only way people get compromised in China but if the claim in TFA that 70% of Chinese users use a third party IME is correct, it seems reasonable that some of them, thinking their chat is secure, would say something that gets them in trouble. Naomi Wu has claimed this has happened and I have no reason to doubt her. Yes OWS is small, but a major security vulnerability for a country with over a billion people seems worth addressing, no? Naomi Wu is certainly a big account on Twitter and we can see from TFA that Moxie and OWS are aware of this complaint. The question is what to do about it. If you read TFA you will see that the best suggestion seems to be a warning to users using any third party IME. Seems quite reasonable to me.

cutitout 6y ago

> But if a person has something important to say, calling people that don't know about the issue assholes is not a great way to go about it. I don't mind it at all. If someone uses "being called asshole" as a reason to not even inform anyone, they would have found another excuse. Some people simply register it as strong language and otherwise focus on the content. At any rate, it's very easy to judge what someone says in frustration when you yourself don't even suffer from the situation and/or don't care about those who do. > But it's not like everyone tries to annoy other, it's more an issue of ignorance. So she shed light on that, and instead of talking about the important bit, people think it's super important to teach a random person to not be rude, ever? That's what we're focusing on?

matsemann 6y ago
> That's what we're focusing on? That's my point. By presenting the issue the way she did, people moved the conversation away from the issue and instead ended up in a meta-discussion about the discourse. If her points were laid out in a nicer manner, she would be closer to actually achieving her goal.
- TaylorAlexander 6y ago
  She did that over one year ago and was ignored. Policing her tone instead of addressing the issue that has people getting kidnapped in China is really missing the point.
- cutitout 6y ago
  > By presenting the issue the way she did, people moved the conversation away from the issue By HER doing A, OTHERS did B? That doesn't even parse as English, and betrays doublethink.
chickenpotpie 6y ago
Open source devs are horribly mistreated for a service they provide for free/very low income. I will gladly focus the conversation on someone being rude to someone that has dedicated their life to making the world a better place. Signal is a nonprofit organization dedicated to the betterment of mankind. They want to a good job and they’re not assholes.
- cutitout 6y ago
  "Making the world a better place" is terribly generic, and not impressive in context of stubbornly refusing to even acknowledge, much less warn users about, an issue that puts actual lives in danger. If they ignored her for so long, what was the excuse before she dared to say "asshole" to adults who dabble with something as serious as this?

the_local_host 6y ago

I'm not sure I'd know about this if the statement wasn't notable for its coarse language. Moreover it's not just a case of criticizing someone who didn't know about the issue, it's criticizing people who are telling people to do something without understanding the risks.

TaylorAlexander 6y ago

She has been ignored for over a year (she tried to get them to discuss the issue in 2019), and all the while people have been getting kidnapped by the Chinese government due to this misunderstanding. I can understand why she would feel upset. I think what set this off was signal responding to questions to some tiny Twitter account after ignoring her for so long.

bllguo 6y ago
Can you substantiate this claim? Or is this just "I know someone who was arrested, it had to be the keyboard"?
- TaylorAlexander 6y ago
  This was Naomi Wu’s claim. She herself has been “taken away for questioning” by the Chinese government (and she shared photos of it) so I have no reason to distrust her claims.
angry_octet 6y ago
It is an extreme exageration to say that the Chinese state artitrarily detaining people is due to Signal not working around the IME issue. Let's be clear: the Chinese state detains people all the time, based on many sources of information, probably the least important being interception of keystrokes to Signal in an input method app. They own all the app makers and the app stores. They can push a specific version of an app to a specific person. Frankly it is meaningless to rely on Signal on a device like that. The OWS team is small. They don't have a social media team like big corps do, tracking social issue engagement, what big accounts have tweeted etc, and it is ridiculous and counter-productive to be going off about it.
- TaylorAlexander 6y ago
  Of course signal is not the only way people get compromised in China but if the claim in TFA that 70% of Chinese users use a third party IME is correct, it seems reasonable that some of them, thinking their chat is secure, would say something that gets them in trouble. Naomi Wu has claimed this has happened and I have no reason to doubt her. Yes OWS is small, but a major security vulnerability for a country with over a billion people seems worth addressing, no? Naomi Wu is certainly a big account on Twitter and we can see from TFA that Moxie and OWS are aware of this complaint. The question is what to do about it. If you read TFA you will see that the best suggestion seems to be a warning to users using any third party IME. Seems quite reasonable to me.