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Just a friendly reminder that Signal runs on donations and that if you can go and give them some money: https://signal.org/donate/ https://signal.org/donate/

by shafyy 6y ago

lucb1e 6y ago
Or that you can use that money for a Matrix server instead of supporting centralization. Element is less polished than Signal app but they've been catching up quite fast. If you and your friends aren't locked into the Signal ecosystem yet, might be worth considering, especially if you're techies.
- oblio 6y ago
  Which Matrix server?
  - lucb1e 6y ago
    E.g. OVH, Hetzner, TransIP... idk whatever kinda server you like. Or repurpose an old laptop at home, for a few Watts you get something that's usually more powerful per ¤ than a VPSes (or "cloud instances" in newspeak). Then install a Matrix server, add your domain, and you've got your own Signal alternative. Or just use the standard matrix.org home server if you're just trying it out / don't mind a not-super-fast home server. Or one of a dozen public Matrix servers: https://www.hello-matrix.net/public_servers.php https://www.hello-matrix.net/public_servers.php
    - oblio 6y ago
      IRC all over again. I don't see this taking over until someone comes up with its Gmail.
      - ripdog 6y ago
        'its gmail' is matrix.org. It is the default server when you start up Element.
        spurgu 6y ago
        Exactly. There's no reason to run your own server aside from supporting the decentralized nature of it (or wanting to be 100% in control).
  - fsflover 6y ago
    Your own.
    - oblio 6y ago
      Then it's dead on arrival.
- godelski 6y ago
  Matrix comes up a lot but even Signal is often called not polished enough. And for matrix onboarding is hard for techies and I've had zero chance for the general public. Fine to push it towards techies, but my grandma can't figure it out but she can Signal. Push matrix when it's more polished but right now it just feels silly to push it.
  - lucb1e 6y ago
    Unfortunately very true, so although I'm not a big fan of Signal's centralization and USA-based metadata processing (I'm not from the USA), I'll probably end up moving my family from (now) Telegram to Signal. Alternatives would be Threema and Wire, but Wire has the same main issues as Signal and Threema doesn't have video calls nor a desktop client and an unusable web client (deal breaker for me: you need to navigate two menus on your phone to reconnect every time your phone connects to another wifi or you suspend your laptop or anything).
    - godelski 6y ago
      > USA-based metadata processing Do you mean that they have servers in the US? US based company? They don't leak metadata, that's the difference between Signal and Telegram/WhatsApp. If the encryption is good it shouldn't matter what country the company or servers is in. That's kinda the point of encryption...
      - lucb1e 6y ago
        You connect to AWS when you connect to Signal. That means the USA is the government with the most influence on Amazon to have taps placed or connection logs handed over. They can do sealed sender stuff all they like, but when 10.0.1.1 sends a 17-byte message and the server then sends a 17-byte message to 10.0.2.1, and a minute later 10.0.2.1 submits something to the server of 48 bytes and then 48 bytes are forwarded to 10.0.1.1... traffic analysis based on a tap of a Signal server isn't rocket science. Still, it's the best we've got for non-techies. Better than handing over more metadata to Facebook. Even if the jurisdiction is the same, the company (Signal Foundation) is better and is known to collect almost nothing historical by themselves. Other than, say, your real-life-identity-tied user ID of course. (In many countries, phone numbers are given out only after passport/ID verification.)
- lol768 6y ago
  > Element is less polished than Signal app To be fair: I've been pleasantly impressed with Element actually from what I've seen of Mozilla's set-up. I can format my text, I can run it in my browser and it starts up very quickly.
  - spurgu 6y ago
    You'll get disappointed once you actually start using it. Unfortunately. There are so many quirks, inconsistencies, poor UI/UX. I've been using Matrix for maybe a year now with a group of techie friends and I would definitely not recommend it for my family members (who I just onboarded from Whatsapp to Signal the other day). Just look at this: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Matrix https://wiki.mozilla.org/Matrix And compare it to installing the Signal app and verifying your phone number with an SMS code. Frictionless.
    - lucb1e 6y ago
      While I agree with the main point of your post ("so many quirks, inconsistencies, poor UI/UX ... not recommend it for my family members"), the availability of documentation doesn't mean it can't be intuitive. Aside from entering a custom home server on login (if applicable, that's something your family will not intuitively get with all the centralized services they're used to), after that one-time login I think most people should be able to find their way around if they try. And we definitely don't need phone numbers and SMS verification for usability: a username will do just fine, we don't have to spend 1.5 million USD from donations just on SMS codes in 2018 alone (source: tax filing).
      - spurgu 6y ago
        > the availability of documentation doesn't mean it can't be intuitive Sure, I'm not saying that either, and Matrix has been improving a lot since I first tried it maybe 2 years ago. But there's still a long way to go. I wasn't as focused on onboarding as I was on criticizing Element's UI/UX in general. > And we definitely don't need phone numbers and SMS verification for usability: a username will do just fine Phone number is just the easiest thing to do. No one is confused by the process and you immediately have access to all of your contacts, while with a username you somehow need to get all the usernames of all of your friends. Inviting new users to various channels kind of works, but it's not as personal as your own contact list. Mind you I'm not saying it's the best option. Personally I'd rather register with a username, not only because I currently have three different phone numbers in use. > we don't have to spend 1.5 million USD from donations just on SMS codes in 2018 alone (source: tax filing) Signal was paying that much? That's crazy.
- mschuetz 6y ago
  I'm already having mild trouble to convince everyone to use signal, there is no chance I could get them to use and keep using Element. Element is terrible.
  - lucb1e 6y ago
    Well now, I wouldn't call it terrible, especially considering it's free and how much better it has gotten in the past years and how many volunteers have worked on it. It's quite decent really, even if not super smooth and polished.
    - mschuetz 6y ago
      It opens three messages - 2 of them modal and one annoyingly large - whenever I login, and I have to login every time I open it. I'd call that a quite terrible experience. Using the web app.
      - gary-kim 6y ago
        Having to login every time is definitely a bug. You may want to make an issue for it at https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues .
- m-p-3 6y ago
  > Element is less polished than Signal app Once nice thing about the Matrix protocol is that you can build your own client following the specs (unlike Signal). If you want something closing to the average instant messaging client, you can look here https://matrix.org/clients/ https://matrix.org/clients/ I personally find FluffyChat a great casual client. https://fluffychat.im https://fluffychat.im
- pmlnr 6y ago
  If anything, they are better off with conversations.im, blabber.im, etc for now, given how rough matrix can get.
- stjohnswarts 6y ago
  why not both?
- tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
  > Element is less polished than Signal app Exactly, which means that it lost. There are opportunities that are rare or unique, and it doesn't matter that you're "catching up" - either you're good enough when the opportunity arises, or you've missed that window. You might get a second chance later, but this opportunity is lost, and the options aren't "Signal or Matrix", the options are "Signal or frustrate people, get them to go back to Whatsapp, and be even more reluctant to switch later". And even if through some magic Element was polished right now: Signal has been polished for years now, and as a result, has built up a brand and user base. I'm not going to be able to switch all my already switch-reluctant friends to something they haven't heard about and that nobody uses; I am going to be able to switch them to Signal, because they've already been pestered about it by several people, have heard about it in the news, and (except for today, which is a huge problem for adoption/switching people over), it works. At least on Android, Element is simply not suitable for end users. I'm not talking about some poorly formatted UI, I'm talking about confusing/broken UX and features that don't properly work. So I put my tech elitism away and do what works, because otherwise we'll be stuck with Facebook. Edit: Forgot the biggest problem: Matrix has no chance because it doesn't use phone numbers as a forced default. With Signal, if your friends have already installed it, you can just start using it with them. With Matrix, you can't. This is one of the hard choices that Moxie made that is a bit of a dick move but was absolutely necessary.
- alexghr 6y ago
  The two are not mutually exclusive. You can still run a Matrix server (or pay Element for one) and donate a few $ to Signal. Competition is good.
- chopin24 6y ago
  You pose this as centralization vs decentralization. This is actually Facebook vs Open Source, and for every feature that isn’t at parity with the existing solution, you lose users. Is now the time to be dogmatic about decentralization?

Just a friendly reminder that Signal runs on donations and that if you can go and give them some money: https://signal.org/donate/ https://signal.org/donate/

by shafyy 6y ago

Just a friendly reminder that Signal runs on donations and that if you can go and give them some money: https://signal.org/donate/ https://signal.org/donate/

lucb1e 6y ago

Or that you can use that money for a Matrix server instead of supporting centralization. Element is less polished than Signal app but they've been catching up quite fast. If you and your friends aren't locked into the Signal ecosystem yet, might be worth considering, especially if you're techies.

oblio 6y ago
Which Matrix server?
- lucb1e 6y ago
  E.g. OVH, Hetzner, TransIP... idk whatever kinda server you like. Or repurpose an old laptop at home, for a few Watts you get something that's usually more powerful per ¤ than a VPSes (or "cloud instances" in newspeak). Then install a Matrix server, add your domain, and you've got your own Signal alternative. Or just use the standard matrix.org home server if you're just trying it out / don't mind a not-super-fast home server. Or one of a dozen public Matrix servers: https://www.hello-matrix.net/public_servers.php https://www.hello-matrix.net/public_servers.php
  - oblio 6y ago
    IRC all over again. I don't see this taking over until someone comes up with its Gmail.
    - ripdog 6y ago
      'its gmail' is matrix.org. It is the default server when you start up Element.
      - spurgu 6y ago
        Exactly. There's no reason to run your own server aside from supporting the decentralized nature of it (or wanting to be 100% in control).
- fsflover 6y ago
  Your own.
  - oblio 6y ago
    Then it's dead on arrival.
godelski 6y ago
Matrix comes up a lot but even Signal is often called not polished enough. And for matrix onboarding is hard for techies and I've had zero chance for the general public. Fine to push it towards techies, but my grandma can't figure it out but she can Signal. Push matrix when it's more polished but right now it just feels silly to push it.
- lucb1e 6y ago
  Unfortunately very true, so although I'm not a big fan of Signal's centralization and USA-based metadata processing (I'm not from the USA), I'll probably end up moving my family from (now) Telegram to Signal. Alternatives would be Threema and Wire, but Wire has the same main issues as Signal and Threema doesn't have video calls nor a desktop client and an unusable web client (deal breaker for me: you need to navigate two menus on your phone to reconnect every time your phone connects to another wifi or you suspend your laptop or anything).
  - godelski 6y ago
    > USA-based metadata processing Do you mean that they have servers in the US? US based company? They don't leak metadata, that's the difference between Signal and Telegram/WhatsApp. If the encryption is good it shouldn't matter what country the company or servers is in. That's kinda the point of encryption...
    - lucb1e 6y ago
      You connect to AWS when you connect to Signal. That means the USA is the government with the most influence on Amazon to have taps placed or connection logs handed over. They can do sealed sender stuff all they like, but when 10.0.1.1 sends a 17-byte message and the server then sends a 17-byte message to 10.0.2.1, and a minute later 10.0.2.1 submits something to the server of 48 bytes and then 48 bytes are forwarded to 10.0.1.1... traffic analysis based on a tap of a Signal server isn't rocket science. Still, it's the best we've got for non-techies. Better than handing over more metadata to Facebook. Even if the jurisdiction is the same, the company (Signal Foundation) is better and is known to collect almost nothing historical by themselves. Other than, say, your real-life-identity-tied user ID of course. (In many countries, phone numbers are given out only after passport/ID verification.)
lol768 6y ago
> Element is less polished than Signal app To be fair: I've been pleasantly impressed with Element actually from what I've seen of Mozilla's set-up. I can format my text, I can run it in my browser and it starts up very quickly.
- spurgu 6y ago
  You'll get disappointed once you actually start using it. Unfortunately. There are so many quirks, inconsistencies, poor UI/UX. I've been using Matrix for maybe a year now with a group of techie friends and I would definitely not recommend it for my family members (who I just onboarded from Whatsapp to Signal the other day). Just look at this: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Matrix https://wiki.mozilla.org/Matrix And compare it to installing the Signal app and verifying your phone number with an SMS code. Frictionless.
  - lucb1e 6y ago
    While I agree with the main point of your post ("so many quirks, inconsistencies, poor UI/UX ... not recommend it for my family members"), the availability of documentation doesn't mean it can't be intuitive. Aside from entering a custom home server on login (if applicable, that's something your family will not intuitively get with all the centralized services they're used to), after that one-time login I think most people should be able to find their way around if they try. And we definitely don't need phone numbers and SMS verification for usability: a username will do just fine, we don't have to spend 1.5 million USD from donations just on SMS codes in 2018 alone (source: tax filing).
    - spurgu 6y ago
      > the availability of documentation doesn't mean it can't be intuitive Sure, I'm not saying that either, and Matrix has been improving a lot since I first tried it maybe 2 years ago. But there's still a long way to go. I wasn't as focused on onboarding as I was on criticizing Element's UI/UX in general. > And we definitely don't need phone numbers and SMS verification for usability: a username will do just fine Phone number is just the easiest thing to do. No one is confused by the process and you immediately have access to all of your contacts, while with a username you somehow need to get all the usernames of all of your friends. Inviting new users to various channels kind of works, but it's not as personal as your own contact list. Mind you I'm not saying it's the best option. Personally I'd rather register with a username, not only because I currently have three different phone numbers in use. > we don't have to spend 1.5 million USD from donations just on SMS codes in 2018 alone (source: tax filing) Signal was paying that much? That's crazy.
mschuetz 6y ago
I'm already having mild trouble to convince everyone to use signal, there is no chance I could get them to use and keep using Element. Element is terrible.
- lucb1e 6y ago
  Well now, I wouldn't call it terrible, especially considering it's free and how much better it has gotten in the past years and how many volunteers have worked on it. It's quite decent really, even if not super smooth and polished.
  - mschuetz 6y ago
    It opens three messages - 2 of them modal and one annoyingly large - whenever I login, and I have to login every time I open it. I'd call that a quite terrible experience. Using the web app.
    - gary-kim 6y ago
      Having to login every time is definitely a bug. You may want to make an issue for it at https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues .
m-p-3 6y ago
> Element is less polished than Signal app Once nice thing about the Matrix protocol is that you can build your own client following the specs (unlike Signal). If you want something closing to the average instant messaging client, you can look here https://matrix.org/clients/ https://matrix.org/clients/ I personally find FluffyChat a great casual client. https://fluffychat.im https://fluffychat.im
pmlnr 6y ago
If anything, they are better off with conversations.im, blabber.im, etc for now, given how rough matrix can get.
stjohnswarts 6y ago
why not both?
tgsovlerkhgsel 6y ago
> Element is less polished than Signal app Exactly, which means that it lost. There are opportunities that are rare or unique, and it doesn't matter that you're "catching up" - either you're good enough when the opportunity arises, or you've missed that window. You might get a second chance later, but this opportunity is lost, and the options aren't "Signal or Matrix", the options are "Signal or frustrate people, get them to go back to Whatsapp, and be even more reluctant to switch later". And even if through some magic Element was polished right now: Signal has been polished for years now, and as a result, has built up a brand and user base. I'm not going to be able to switch all my already switch-reluctant friends to something they haven't heard about and that nobody uses; I am going to be able to switch them to Signal, because they've already been pestered about it by several people, have heard about it in the news, and (except for today, which is a huge problem for adoption/switching people over), it works. At least on Android, Element is simply not suitable for end users. I'm not talking about some poorly formatted UI, I'm talking about confusing/broken UX and features that don't properly work. So I put my tech elitism away and do what works, because otherwise we'll be stuck with Facebook. Edit: Forgot the biggest problem: Matrix has no chance because it doesn't use phone numbers as a forced default. With Signal, if your friends have already installed it, you can just start using it with them. With Matrix, you can't. This is one of the hard choices that Moxie made that is a bit of a dick move but was absolutely necessary.
alexghr 6y ago
The two are not mutually exclusive. You can still run a Matrix server (or pay Element for one) and donate a few $ to Signal. Competition is good.
chopin24 6y ago
You pose this as centralization vs decentralization. This is actually Facebook vs Open Source, and for every feature that isn’t at parity with the existing solution, you lose users. Is now the time to be dogmatic about decentralization?