3 ms·

Anecdotally, I can confirm that it's similar in essence and just overwhelmingly stronger in effect. It's a bit like having finally decided every single one of t

by cmehdy 6y ago

Anecdotally, I can confirm that it's similar in essence and just overwhelmingly stronger in effect. It's a bit like having finally decided every single one of the big decisions of life in the same split second (because that's what it is in the moment). It's also stronger than that because the very likely "normal state" of your brain up to that point is severe depression, so you're not anywhere near what people might consider an average state of mind, and you're getting that strong of a kick. You can ride that euphoria for quite a while even through some of the nagging doubts clawing their way back between the initial feeling and the last action. I doubt much research can be done for what I'm about to say (and I might be very wrong), but I have the feeling that when you're alone (mentally) you can ride that wave for a decent amount of time yet with just a very brief REAL interaction with another human being you can snap out of it. It might not fully dissipate but still break the trance-like state. Not a lot of interactions might feel real like that, but when they do they can be life-changing (for obvious reasons) even when the subject matter is frivolous. You'll likely never know just how many you changed, nor why. We often notice how "easy"/quick it is to hurt somebody by saying something even light-hearted, but when it comes to that extreme you'd be surprised how very few words about mundane things can prevent a collapse (at least that time).

eitland 6y ago
You made it to my quotes file, which is a somewhat high bar even if it doesn't help for anything ;-) > We often notice how "easy"/quick it is to hurt somebody by saying something even light-hearted, I've been very aware of this for the last ten years after realizing that despite my good intentions I could sometimes hurt others. > but when it comes to that extreme you'd be surprised how very few words about mundane things can prevent a collapse (at least that time). I think this will be important to keep in mind too going forward. Thanks!
ska 6y ago
This is a thoughtful comment. I do think it is incredibly hard to gauge "relative effect" between people, so I don't think we can really rank them (except for ourselves, of course). There is some nuance here. I've also experienced a lot of variance in my social group in terms of what things have really seemed to set them back. I really like your point that seemingly "small" things can make a huge difference in someone else's state of mind. It's a strong argument for being as kind as you can by default, because you really have no idea what those around you are going through.
- cmehdy 6y ago
  I initially thought about writing what you're concluding, but after giving it more thought my conclusion wasn't that one has to strive to be kind but instead to be sincere. Kindness for its own sake might even be upsetting to me, instead of kindness "happening" alongside sincerity. But I realized that this was due to my own preferences (having more interactions that don't feel scripted, a human connection even with all the not-so-good parts), so I decided to leave it out of the message. Because I have no way to really prescribe anything to anybody, I don't know what is "best" if being kind and being sincere ever conflict, and I don't know what other people in such a vulnerable situation might react to or want. For all I know it might be diametrically opposed in a significant subset of people having gone through the same process. From the other side of things, I have had decent outcomes attempting to be both at once when someone is in crisis. Using my better judgment to figure out what to prioritize if conflict arises between the two - often based on what I perceived from the other person. There's time for advice, there's time for being heard, there's time to be. I'd hardly call that an exact science, but I remind myself and anyone who I think should hear it that you shouldn't beat yourself up for trying to help and not "succeeding". That it's not your fault, nor is it the fault of the person in pain to do something so violent because they want to stop feeling that pain. Faulting leads nowhere constructive, even though later on I could find strength to figure out (and own up to) my own part of responsibility in life - which can be constructive. I guess the HN-equivalent discussion is all the debate around the naming of "git blame" :) We just simply don't have enough information about the universe to really know better most of the time, and as a consequence of that you can't reliably predict much of it all even with the best and most genuine attempts to help. (I realize I am saying obvious things, but I'll leave it there)
  - ska 6y ago
    It's a good point, but perhaps mostly a semantic one. "Kindness" here was not meant to imply insincere but I think I get the distinction you are drawing. I guess I was mostly thinking along the lines that it's impossible to have a good model of the mental state of the person you are dealing with, so you simultaneously should be forgiving of rough edges in their treatment of you, and thoughtful about your treatment of them - absolutely I think this includes the sort of judgment you are talking about.
Tade0 6y ago
Thanks to this stack of comments I finally understood why my college friend appeared to feel better days before he took his life - he made his decision and was at peace with it.

by cmehdy 6y ago

eitland 6y ago

You made it to my quotes file, which is a somewhat high bar even if it doesn't help for anything ;-) > We often notice how "easy"/quick it is to hurt somebody by saying something even light-hearted, I've been very aware of this for the last ten years after realizing that despite my good intentions I could sometimes hurt others. > but when it comes to that extreme you'd be surprised how very few words about mundane things can prevent a collapse (at least that time). I think this will be important to keep in mind too going forward. Thanks!

ska 6y ago

This is a thoughtful comment. I do think it is incredibly hard to gauge "relative effect" between people, so I don't think we can really rank them (except for ourselves, of course). There is some nuance here. I've also experienced a lot of variance in my social group in terms of what things have really seemed to set them back. I really like your point that seemingly "small" things can make a huge difference in someone else's state of mind. It's a strong argument for being as kind as you can by default, because you really have no idea what those around you are going through.

cmehdy 6y ago
I initially thought about writing what you're concluding, but after giving it more thought my conclusion wasn't that one has to strive to be kind but instead to be sincere. Kindness for its own sake might even be upsetting to me, instead of kindness "happening" alongside sincerity. But I realized that this was due to my own preferences (having more interactions that don't feel scripted, a human connection even with all the not-so-good parts), so I decided to leave it out of the message. Because I have no way to really prescribe anything to anybody, I don't know what is "best" if being kind and being sincere ever conflict, and I don't know what other people in such a vulnerable situation might react to or want. For all I know it might be diametrically opposed in a significant subset of people having gone through the same process. From the other side of things, I have had decent outcomes attempting to be both at once when someone is in crisis. Using my better judgment to figure out what to prioritize if conflict arises between the two - often based on what I perceived from the other person. There's time for advice, there's time for being heard, there's time to be. I'd hardly call that an exact science, but I remind myself and anyone who I think should hear it that you shouldn't beat yourself up for trying to help and not "succeeding". That it's not your fault, nor is it the fault of the person in pain to do something so violent because they want to stop feeling that pain. Faulting leads nowhere constructive, even though later on I could find strength to figure out (and own up to) my own part of responsibility in life - which can be constructive. I guess the HN-equivalent discussion is all the debate around the naming of "git blame" :) We just simply don't have enough information about the universe to really know better most of the time, and as a consequence of that you can't reliably predict much of it all even with the best and most genuine attempts to help. (I realize I am saying obvious things, but I'll leave it there)
- ska 6y ago
  It's a good point, but perhaps mostly a semantic one. "Kindness" here was not meant to imply insincere but I think I get the distinction you are drawing. I guess I was mostly thinking along the lines that it's impossible to have a good model of the mental state of the person you are dealing with, so you simultaneously should be forgiving of rough edges in their treatment of you, and thoughtful about your treatment of them - absolutely I think this includes the sort of judgment you are talking about.

Tade0 6y ago

Thanks to this stack of comments I finally understood why my college friend appeared to feel better days before he took his life - he made his decision and was at peace with it.