5 ms·

Worth noting that unlike the cells of the human body, cancer cells are unable to utilize ketones as an energy source[0][1], hence the benefits of a ketogenic di

Worth noting that unlike the cells of the human body, cancer cells are unable to utilize ketones as an energy source[0][1], hence the benefits of a ketogenic diet. A ketogenic diet can also be ideally coupled with intermittent fasting[2] in order to engage/enhance autophagy within the body. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5842847/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5842847/ [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6375425/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6375425/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6257056/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6257056/

dpatrick86 6y ago
Your point may be broadly true but subject to important caveats. Cancer is a very heterogeneous disease. There is evidence that _some_ cancers can use, for example, acetoacetate. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/01/170112141359.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/01/170112141359.h...
mehrzad 6y ago
Back when I had cancer in 2015, I read about this effect but I also read there was some potential danger in the cancer cells adapting to ketosis and accelerating their growth, so I thought it seemed too risky. It seems like the research may have improved since then though to suggest some benefit.
- mkrishnan 6y ago
  Congrats.
- eloff 6y ago
  I don't follow your logic there, cancer cells have an effective metabolism by default, so the chance that they can adapt to ketosis seems much better odds than the 100% that they're already adapted to your diet. But I'm very glad that whatever your decision, you're still among the living! Cancer is a terrifying diagnosis.
wonder_er 6y ago
The fascinating story of these dualing theories of cancer (somatic vs. metabolic) is told in Tripping Over the Truth: The Metabolic Theory of Cancer [0]. I've read it twice. Strongly recommended. [0]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23496164-tripping-over-the-truth https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23496164-tripping-over-t...
INTPenis 6y ago
Interesting! But worth noting is that there are cancers that feed on estrogen for example. And other users have noted that cancers don't just feed on ketones. But it's really cool because keto seems to be a diet that truly works, also requires some will power.
deeviant 6y ago
Also worth noting that ketogenic diets seem to increase all-cause mortality significantly. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23372809/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23372809/
- funnymania 6y ago
  This doesn't say much about ketogenic diets. Were these diets even high fat?
  - deeviant 6y ago
    The literal name of the study is "Low-carbohydrate diets and all-cause mortality: a systematic review and meta-analysis of observational studies". It specifically found " Low-carbohydrate diets were associated with a significantly higher risk of all-cause mortality and they were not significantly associated with a risk of CVD mortality and incidence." Perhaps you are on the "oh but the study does specifically say, "low carb, high fat" diet, so it obviously only looked at people eating low carb, low fat diets!" train? There seems to be some fantasy with the Keto crowd that these studies somehow only look at some mysterious section of the population in which eats a very low carb diet but also low fat? People don't eat a low carb diet by accident, when they do they often follow the horrible advice given by the many misguided keto diet proponents: eat low carb, high fat, medium protein. You can find a near endless amount of longitudinal meta analysis and more focused studies that nearly universally find diets that are lowest in carbs (regardless of protein/fat ratio) produce the highest all-cause mortality. https://www.acc.org/latest-in-cardiology/journal-scans/2019/09/16/15/00/lower-carbohydrate-diets-and-all-cause https://www.acc.org/latest-in-cardiology/journal-scans/2019/... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3555979/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3555979/ https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/article/40/34/2870/5475490 https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/article/40/34/2870/547549... https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(18)30135-X/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2... And so on...
    - astrostl 6y ago
      > People don't eat a low carb diet by accident, when they do they often follow the horrible advice given by the many misguided keto diet proponents: eat low carb, high fat, medium protein. This is not remotely my anecdotal experience. The overwhelming majority of those I know that I have dabbled with low carb ran the bunless burger, chicken wings, bacon, and steak game and I would guess that their macro intake was high protein, medium fat (if that), low carb. The textbook versions are high fat, medium protein, low carb. And seemingly pretty hard to pull off without eating a lot of stuff like salads with a cup of olive oil.

dpatrick86 6y ago

Your point may be broadly true but subject to important caveats. Cancer is a very heterogeneous disease. There is evidence that _some_ cancers can use, for example, acetoacetate. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/01/170112141359.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/01/170112141359.h...

mehrzad 6y ago

Back when I had cancer in 2015, I read about this effect but I also read there was some potential danger in the cancer cells adapting to ketosis and accelerating their growth, so I thought it seemed too risky. It seems like the research may have improved since then though to suggest some benefit.

mkrishnan 6y ago
Congrats.
eloff 6y ago
I don't follow your logic there, cancer cells have an effective metabolism by default, so the chance that they can adapt to ketosis seems much better odds than the 100% that they're already adapted to your diet. But I'm very glad that whatever your decision, you're still among the living! Cancer is a terrifying diagnosis.

wonder_er 6y ago

The fascinating story of these dualing theories of cancer (somatic vs. metabolic) is told in Tripping Over the Truth: The Metabolic Theory of Cancer [0]. I've read it twice. Strongly recommended. [0]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23496164-tripping-over-the-truth https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/23496164-tripping-over-t...

INTPenis 6y ago

Interesting! But worth noting is that there are cancers that feed on estrogen for example. And other users have noted that cancers don't just feed on ketones. But it's really cool because keto seems to be a diet that truly works, also requires some will power.

deeviant 6y ago

Also worth noting that ketogenic diets seem to increase all-cause mortality significantly. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23372809/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23372809/

funnymania 6y ago
This doesn't say much about ketogenic diets. Were these diets even high fat?
- deeviant 6y ago
  The literal name of the study is "Low-carbohydrate diets and all-cause mortality: a systematic review and meta-analysis of observational studies". It specifically found " Low-carbohydrate diets were associated with a significantly higher risk of all-cause mortality and they were not significantly associated with a risk of CVD mortality and incidence." Perhaps you are on the "oh but the study does specifically say, "low carb, high fat" diet, so it obviously only looked at people eating low carb, low fat diets!" train? There seems to be some fantasy with the Keto crowd that these studies somehow only look at some mysterious section of the population in which eats a very low carb diet but also low fat? People don't eat a low carb diet by accident, when they do they often follow the horrible advice given by the many misguided keto diet proponents: eat low carb, high fat, medium protein. You can find a near endless amount of longitudinal meta analysis and more focused studies that nearly universally find diets that are lowest in carbs (regardless of protein/fat ratio) produce the highest all-cause mortality. https://www.acc.org/latest-in-cardiology/journal-scans/2019/09/16/15/00/lower-carbohydrate-diets-and-all-cause https://www.acc.org/latest-in-cardiology/journal-scans/2019/... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3555979/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3555979/ https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/article/40/34/2870/5475490 https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/article/40/34/2870/547549... https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(18)30135-X/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2... And so on...
  - astrostl 6y ago
    > People don't eat a low carb diet by accident, when they do they often follow the horrible advice given by the many misguided keto diet proponents: eat low carb, high fat, medium protein. This is not remotely my anecdotal experience. The overwhelming majority of those I know that I have dabbled with low carb ran the bunless burger, chicken wings, bacon, and steak game and I would guess that their macro intake was high protein, medium fat (if that), low carb. The textbook versions are high fat, medium protein, low carb. And seemingly pretty hard to pull off without eating a lot of stuff like salads with a cup of olive oil.