6 ms·
I’m curious to see how fasting might influence cancer treatment. I know in other parts of the world it is seen as a legitimate treatment, while also potentially
by whalesalad 6y ago
I’m curious to see how fasting might influence cancer treatment. I know in other parts of the world it is seen as a legitimate treatment, while also potentially considered to be a hippy dippy homeopathic treatment. Anecdotally it seems you can starve certain cancers to death pretty easily by severely limiting your caloric intake. I sense a relationship between that and this study.
- dplgk 6y agoThis didn't work for Steve Jobs
- simplemen 6y agoHe wasn't fasting, he was on fruits diet.
- Technically 6y agoWhat's the metabolic difference between major and complete fasting? I honestly have no idea.
- jaywalk 6y agoYeah, and he also had a highly treatable form of cancer and access to the best medical care in the world. Unfortunately his arrogance got the best of him.
- dplgk 6y agoHe drank carrot juice which I'd say is severely limiting your caloric intake.
- Dirlewanger 6y agoLimiting your caloric intake is not the same as fasting.
- teknopurge 6y agoAlso keep in mind that sugar is the enemy. Your body has chemistry to make sugar - there is no-need to ingest it.
- tluyben2 6y agoSo what is 'allowed'? Because I have been seeing 'low calories' (fruits/carrot juice etc) to nothing, even no water to make sure your digestive system does not trigger at all. I know no-one knows this for sure, but what is the current theory?
- DiabloD3 6y agoIf you're fasting for this sort of thing, you do not want an elevated insulin level. High insulin levels disable autophagy pathways. The best way of doing this, based on years of science, would be, well, to eat nothing for 24+ hours at a time, but make sure you stay hydrated; as in, actually fast. The second best would be to seriously curb your carbs, under 30g a day; also tied for second best is to eat just once a day, none of this unscientific three square meals hogwash. Three of these together could halt the progress of some cancers, and before the shitstorm that was 2020, scientists were publishing papers involving animal models on this. Steve Jobs did none of these, and was, sadly, off in la-la land when someone with his money and connections could have had access to next generation scientifically-based treatments. Fruitarianism is, frankly, dangerous.
- rsync 6y agoThe idea would be to have zero caloric inputs. So water and coffee or tea (without milk, of course) would be fine. You're trying to avoid an insulin response and firing up the entire machinery of digestion. I think it's non-controversial to say that this starves the cancer cells. Perhaps less certainly we can also say that digestion demands a lot of resources and is an interrupt for a lot of other processes. When your body has nothing to do for 24-36 hours eventually lower priority tasks get attended to ... like garbage collection.
- majkinetor 6y agoNot zero. Fat has zero effect on insulin. You need to limit carbs and proteins.
- agumonkey 6y agoStudent said that sadly cancerous cells could last longer starving than healthy cells.
- thotsBgone 6y agoHe was also on the fruits diet before the pancreatic cancer. Makes you wonder if the fruit diet contributed to the cancer.
- caymanjim 6y agoJobs also had pancreatic cancer. It's just about the worst cancer you can get. Over 95% mortality rate. I don't think he did himself any favors by eschewing medical treatment in favor of alternative "medicine", but the harsh reality is that he was doomed no matter what.
- avaldeso 6y ago> Jobs also had pancreatic cancer. It's just about the worst cancer you can get. Over 95% mortality rate. Jobs had GEP-NET cancer, which have 5 years OSR of 70% at stage IV. It's a slow growing cancer, very survivable and even surgically curable in early stage. The fast, almost always fatal is the pancreatic adenocarcinoma. Also, the mortality rate of a cancer is a function of many variables (stage at the time of diagnosis, tumor differentiation, tumor location, etc.). A number like 95% doesn't make any sense without a lot of context.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y agoFrom a non-medical professional's perspective it doesn't seem that strange. Medical treatments for cancer include "let's slowly irradiate you and hope the cancer dies first" and "let's slowly poison you and hope the cancer dies first". "let's slowly starve you to death and hope the cancer dies first" doesn't seem all that different.
- Blikkentrekker 6y agoSuch treatments attempt to concentrate the radiation and poison where the cancer is, however.
- excannuck 6y agoInsofar as cancer cells need more energy, starvation is also specific.
- peterdemic 6y agoThat is not entirely true... The prevalent chemotherapy is detrimental to cells all over the body and it has no way of distinguishing cancel cells vs non-cancer cells. Targeted therapies are different and are becoming more widely used but are still small in percentage of patients compared to "classic" chemotherapy.
- PeterisP 6y ago"the prevalent chemotherapy is detrimental to cells all over the body" I'm not a doctor, but isn't the case that the prevalent chemotherapy is detrimental to new/growing cells all over the body, which is a way of distinguishing cancer cells (and a few types of tissue e.g. hair) vs most types of non-cancer cells?
- peterdemic 6y agoYes, that's correct! My bad for not being more clear!
- 6y ago
- captaincrunch 6y agoNo medical experience, other than as a patient... however I read the body can live up to two months without food (but with adequate water). If you managed to survive longer than the cancer cells, wouldn't they just come back after defeat? Doesn't this stem from DNA?
- jaywalk 6y agoSame disclaimer as you on expertise, but cancer basically comes from one mutation when a cell divides that causes it to start dividing out of control. So if you manage to starve all of those out of control cells to death, you've eradicated the cancer. The caveat is that you've got to kill _all_ of the cells, not just most of them.
- chmod600 6y agoDumb question: why two months? Doesn't it depend on your fat reserves? If you are 350 pounds, can't you just not eat until you are 150 and be fine? (I am not suggesting that this is true or that anyone should try it; I don't know and I am asking the question.)
- ThePadawan 6y agoIt certainly has been done: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus_Barbieri%27s_fast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angus_Barbieri%27s_fast
- beagle3 6y agoWith respect to energy, that’s apparently true. However, metabolism has non-energy needs which are supplied through food: vitamins, minerals, protein, and some fats that cannot be synthesized iirc. Though these needs are greatly reduced when fasting, they do not go to zero. Google “angus barbieri” for the most famous, though not unique, example for medically documented long term fasting.
- k__ 6y agoWhen I look at this image [0] it seems to me that muslim countries (which tend to fast once a year, I guess?) and poor countries have fewer cases of cancer. But at least with the poor countries I'm not sure if it's because people die of other reasons before they even could get cancer. [0] https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a0728f7c2418f32922558bd1ed464db4-c https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a0728f7c2418f32922558b...
- vmception 6y agoThat image doesn't warrant a single synapse of your thought without per capita numbers. And then you can try to find other correlations.
- k__ 6y agoIt says "rate per 100000 population" on the top right.
- vmception 6y agothanks, did not see that on mobile. so now we can just skip right on over to how people in those African regions die before they even reach more probable cancer age, it absolutely is more so because of them dying, as you initially pondered. Life expectancy is an average, and that average is less than 60 years old in large regions.
- capitainenemo 6y agoI'm not sure how detectable fasting during daylight hours 10% of the year would be. I'm thinking other confounding factors (like massive amount of fructose in diet driving obesity levels) in western countries would swamp that out. Not to mention the Ramadan fast is only a modest form of intermittent fasting. The caloric intake for the day is quite high, often higher than normal due to feasting, and the hours of fasting are anything from 12-18 (while eating once a day would be more like a consistent 21h of fasting year round).
- sjg007 6y agoThere's some evidence it is beneficial and protects healthy cells from chemotherapy and radiation. Fasting and a keto diet force the body to use fatty acid metabolism.
- majkinetor 6y agoFasting certainly prolongs life by limiting resources to the cancer which can't handle it very well compared to your own cells (that do not grow as rapidly). It can't cure tho, because liver and kidney will create most important resources for body to be able to work.
- Dirlewanger 6y agoYup, check out Cole Robinson who apparently has helped numerous people beat cancer with it (in addition to rapid weight loss). He's rough around the edges with his training techniques, but he knows how to motivate and gets results out of people. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_yUeH8TsG5pxqvkOxBtsFA https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_yUeH8TsG5pxqvkOxBtsFA
- chmod600 6y agoWould the supposed benefits of fasting happen right away, or only after your fat reserves start to deplete?
- whalesalad 6y agohttps://osher.ucsf.edu/patient-care/integrative-medicine-resources/cancer-and-nutrition/faq/cancer-and-fasting-calorie-restriction https://osher.ucsf.edu/patient-care/integrative-medicine-res...
- krrrh 6y agoValter Longo’s lab at USC has done extensive research on this, and developed a fasting mimicking diet that can be used in conjunction with cancer treatments. They found that it increases resiliency from chemotherapy in healthy cells and makes cancer cells more vulnerable. This interview with Rhonda Patrick is a good introduction to his research, but it’s quite extensive and the papers are worth checking out if you’re interested in this topic. https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/valter-longo-2 https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/valter-longo-2