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> programmers will scream in rage that no, they are not, and by the way, you are stupid for saying it, you clearly have no idea what you are doing and you will

> programmers will scream in rage that no, they are not, and by the way, you are stupid for saying it, you clearly have no idea what you are doing and you will never be a programmer. Nobody has said this to you in this thread, and the fact that you're acting like it is the only toxic thing here. This is called a straw-man logical fallacy, you misrepresent my argument so it makes it easier for you to attack. Nobody has said this to you, that part is all in your head. I'm saying the tools are not weird if you understand them, and how they fit as a cohesive whole. I'm saying they just look weird to you, because you don't yet understand them. Can we do better? Absolutely, I'm all for better tools. But if the original poster wants to install pip and ruby and nodejs then knowledge of system paths is mandatory - because this is what they are trying to do. In my answers above, I have named several programming languages, several operating systems, discussed my commercial experience and then talked about the rationale behind my logic. You have done nothing but turn these into personal attacks against yourself, not discussing systems or operating systems, (not even naming one!) but always complaining about people calling you stupid or how you're the victim. The only person that has used the word stupid in this thread is you. You are a toxic narcissist, and I chose not to engage with you.

user-the-name 6y ago
First you say nobody has called me stupid. Then in the NEXT PARAGRAPH, you tell me that I don't understand command line tools. I have been using them for decades. I know them very, VERY well. I am saying all of this from a position of long and deep familiarity with the tools. Yet immediately you jump the conclusion that I just don't know what I am talking about.
- davorak 6y ago
  > First you say nobody has called me stupid. > Then in the NEXT PARAGRAPH, you tell me that I don't understand command line tools. Nothing I read by malux85 implied to me that not understanding command line tools makes someone stupid.
- jdbernard 6y ago
  I think davorak is right, malux85 never says lack of understanding implies stupidity. I'd go even further. I don't read malux85's comment as an attack on your understanding personally. I read it as referring to people like the blog post author, who clearly don't understand the basics of the tools they're complaining about. No one is screaming in rage about anything here. We do tend to get frustrated hearing complaints from people that are unwilling to take even the smallest amount of time to learn before complaining about the state of things.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
> I'm saying the tools are not weird if you understand them No, they are still weird. They are only not weird if you've become accustomed to the weirdness. I primarily develop on Windows, and when I come to Linux to work on things I am astonished to find that Linux developers think nothing of using upwards of half a dozen different languages to build one thing. CMake, autoconf, shell, and python all being used to build a single C++ program is weird and unnecessary. If you don't think so I submit you've merely become accustomed to doing things in this incredibly weird way! PS: Windows has its own developer tendencies that are weird and unnecessary, but I will at least readily admit that about them.
- ryandrake 6y ago
  I think a lot of this thread is people’s biases from what they are used to. I’m one of those guys who started on the command line and lived on the command line most of his life. I couldn’t imagine a more productive environment! I consider a bunch of xterms running vi to be the pinnacle of IDEs. But I did two brief stints at Windows shops and just couldn’t get really productive. The guy next to me who was scared of the command line and never went outside Visual Studio? He wasn’t stupid, he just had a different lineage and got accustomed to a different environment and workflow. One is not inherently better than the other. That said, if you are a modern web developer, you just have to understand the command line. You have to know what /usr/local/bin is. You have to know how to install your toolchain. It’s inconvenient, but it’s table stakes. I don’t think it’s reasonable to say “Hey! I’m used to GUIs so people programming on the command line are wrong and I shouldn’t need to know about /usr/local/bin“
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    I think it is perfectly reasonable to question whether all of that is necessary just to program stuff for the web.
    - minkzilla 6y ago
      “Just” to program stuff for the web? Web development is a complicated and amazing feat of engineering! The fact that you can write some code on your machine to make any pretty graphic and maze of pages you want and it will run in this thing we call a browser that pretty much anyone in the world can also run even if they are on Linux, windows, android, iOS, or any other number operating systems not to mention hardware! Think of all the layers of abstraction and code that is necessary to have millions of combinations of hardware + software all show the same thing! It’s amazing how simple it is to do web development! The fact that it is doable to set up a website in an afternoon that is accessible all over the world is ASTONISHING.

user-the-name 6y ago

First you say nobody has called me stupid. Then in the NEXT PARAGRAPH, you tell me that I don't understand command line tools. I have been using them for decades. I know them very, VERY well. I am saying all of this from a position of long and deep familiarity with the tools. Yet immediately you jump the conclusion that I just don't know what I am talking about.

davorak 6y ago
> First you say nobody has called me stupid. > Then in the NEXT PARAGRAPH, you tell me that I don't understand command line tools. Nothing I read by malux85 implied to me that not understanding command line tools makes someone stupid.
jdbernard 6y ago
I think davorak is right, malux85 never says lack of understanding implies stupidity. I'd go even further. I don't read malux85's comment as an attack on your understanding personally. I read it as referring to people like the blog post author, who clearly don't understand the basics of the tools they're complaining about. No one is screaming in rage about anything here. We do tend to get frustrated hearing complaints from people that are unwilling to take even the smallest amount of time to learn before complaining about the state of things.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago

> I'm saying the tools are not weird if you understand them No, they are still weird. They are only not weird if you've become accustomed to the weirdness. I primarily develop on Windows, and when I come to Linux to work on things I am astonished to find that Linux developers think nothing of using upwards of half a dozen different languages to build one thing. CMake, autoconf, shell, and python all being used to build a single C++ program is weird and unnecessary. If you don't think so I submit you've merely become accustomed to doing things in this incredibly weird way! PS: Windows has its own developer tendencies that are weird and unnecessary, but I will at least readily admit that about them.

ryandrake 6y ago
I think a lot of this thread is people’s biases from what they are used to. I’m one of those guys who started on the command line and lived on the command line most of his life. I couldn’t imagine a more productive environment! I consider a bunch of xterms running vi to be the pinnacle of IDEs. But I did two brief stints at Windows shops and just couldn’t get really productive. The guy next to me who was scared of the command line and never went outside Visual Studio? He wasn’t stupid, he just had a different lineage and got accustomed to a different environment and workflow. One is not inherently better than the other. That said, if you are a modern web developer, you just have to understand the command line. You have to know what /usr/local/bin is. You have to know how to install your toolchain. It’s inconvenient, but it’s table stakes. I don’t think it’s reasonable to say “Hey! I’m used to GUIs so people programming on the command line are wrong and I shouldn’t need to know about /usr/local/bin“
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  I think it is perfectly reasonable to question whether all of that is necessary just to program stuff for the web.
  - minkzilla 6y ago
    “Just” to program stuff for the web? Web development is a complicated and amazing feat of engineering! The fact that you can write some code on your machine to make any pretty graphic and maze of pages you want and it will run in this thing we call a browser that pretty much anyone in the world can also run even if they are on Linux, windows, android, iOS, or any other number operating systems not to mention hardware! Think of all the layers of abstraction and code that is necessary to have millions of combinations of hardware + software all show the same thing! It’s amazing how simple it is to do web development! The fact that it is doable to set up a website in an afternoon that is accessible all over the world is ASTONISHING.