5 ms·

It's worth noting that almost anything with a magnetic field can interfere with a pacemaker, for instance induction hobs. Given the pervasiveness of, well, magn

by elric 6y ago

It's worth noting that almost anything with a magnetic field can interfere with a pacemaker, for instance induction hobs. Given the pervasiveness of, well, magnets (!), it's probably worth investing in pacemaker research which takes this into account ...

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
mrkwse 6y ago
People don't tend to hug their hobs though...
- pletnes 6y ago
  Hobs output >2 kW, phones just... don’t (edit: i.e range of magnetic field is longer)
  - archi42 6y ago
    I'd expect the "receiver"/pot to deform the field enough as to not matter anymore at those distances. Plus, inductive hobs around here tend to detect the presence of a pot and not just try pumping 2kW of energy into "nothing". And you're comparing a dynamically pulsed EM field with the static M field of the alignment magnets - they might be able to heat the reed, but might just not be able actually trigger it (edit: to clarify, that's my guess; I'd expect manufacturers of either devices [ICDs and hobs] to test for potentially lethal problems).
- antihero 6y ago
  How many people put their phone in their "upper pockets"? Or even have "upper pockets"?
  - em10fan 6y ago
    Many men? If you are wearing a suit, a smartphone makes the trouser pockets bulge a lot, so it's common to keep it in your shirt pocket or jacket inside pocket - Both of which is next to your heart.
    - Maxious 6y ago
      The FDA [1] advises "don’t carry the phone in a shirt or jacket pocket directly over the pacemaker." as well as the American Heart Association [2] "Avoid keeping your cell phone in your front chest pocket." 1: https://www.fda.gov/radiation-emitting-products/cell-phones/potential-cell-phone-interference-pacemakers-and-other-medical-devices https://www.fda.gov/radiation-emitting-products/cell-phones/... 2: https://www.heart.org/en/health-topics/arrhythmia/prevention--treatment-of-arrhythmia/devices-that-may-interfere-with-icds-and-pacemakers https://www.heart.org/en/health-topics/arrhythmia/prevention...
      - foepys 6y ago
        They can advise as much as they want, people just do it anyways. Same with smoking, drinking, taking drugs, etc.
        netsharc 6y ago
        One hopes people with a device keeping them alive would have an incentive to follow instructions, especially if it doesn't involve addictive substances. They also get told to avoid metal detectors, and they know to do this, so it's probably, hopefully, an easy habit to change
    - Mauricebranagh 6y ago
      And quite a lot of shirts do as well.
    - tzs 6y ago
      Perhaps it is time for the codpiece to make a comeback in male business attire, updated for modern times to include a phone pouch.
  - manicdee 6y ago
    You mean the one the pocket protector goes in with your drafting pencil and calculator (well, phone in this day and age)?
  - Jap2-0 6y ago
    My grandfather always does. He doesn't have a pacemaker, but it may not be as unreasonable of a thing as you might assume.
  - mankyd 6y ago
    I do. I don't leave it there generally, but its often easier to get my phone in and out of my shirt pocket when I am seated, crouched, or otherwise actively engaged with something and I don't want to stand up.
  - notacoward 6y ago
    You mean like in an inside jacket pocket in parts of the world where it actually gets cold? A lot.
  - ajuc 6y ago
    Winter coats very often have upper pockets and they are perfect for big smartphones.
  - JohnBooty 6y ago
    A lot of newer (like, last 5-6 years?) jackets have an outer upper chest pocket. ex: https://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/product.do?pid=3397220020504&cid=1053127&pcid=1053127 https://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/product.do?pid=3397220020504&... It's the most convenient place for a phone on your person. Easier than pants pockets if you're sitting down. No fumbling with inside jacket pockets. And you can use your "normal" jacket pockets to keep your hands warm without worrying about your phone falling out.
raverbashing 6y ago
Or, you know, a fridge magnet when carried on a pocket
- rob74 6y ago
  Hey, cool idea, if I put a small steel plate on the other side, I can wear my favourite fridge magnets instead of pins! Lucky I don't have a pacemaker...
sipos 6y ago
It isn't hard to make them triggered a different way, it is that it is hard to make them reliable enough and triggered a different way. They are designed to be triggered this way because it makes them simple. They are hard to service (requires surgery) and need to be triggered reliably when they are bring triggered. To achieve this, they are made as simply as possible, so have a simple trigger mechanism. Users of them are then told that they have to avoid this situation, by being very careful. One of the instructions anyway is to not keep a phone near them, because of concerns about RF interference. It isn't a case of making another way to trigger pace-makers, it is a case of making a way that is extremely unlikely to fail to work and will remain like that for decades, and where equipment to do it is very cheap. It will then take decades for there not to be people with these devices walking around. If they are changed to work a different way, you also need to equip hospitals around the world with a way to trigger them. Basically, it is really impractical, and it is not as much of a problem as you might think because users should already be hyper aware of the danger of this. Anything you do to change it has a huge risk of killing them because of failing to work if it turns out to be even a tiny bit less reliable after the devices have been inside people for years. Another example of a device that would be a problem like this is my watch. Jewelry that would have similar problems is also common. Things which would be a problem if put close enough are everywhere, but this is always going to be an issue with something like this that is designed to be triggered easily and extremely reliably, and the decision has previously been taken to educate the tiny number of users of them about it rather than go through the unimaginable logistical effort of changing them now (obviously it was much easier when they were new and rare). Edit: removed paragraph about making a warning device that I don't think is worth including here.
- elric 6y ago
  I don't disagree, but I think you overestimate the ability of people to be careful and aware of their surroundings at all times. Or to even remember that it's an issue. Magnetic fields are invisible. A pacemaker patient I know was unaware of the (potential and low) risk posed by induction hobs. I'm sure this was explained to him, but not everyone is a pacemaker (or magnetic field) expert, nor can we expect everyone to be.

by elric 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

mrkwse 6y ago

People don't tend to hug their hobs though...

pletnes 6y ago
Hobs output >2 kW, phones just... don’t (edit: i.e range of magnetic field is longer)
- archi42 6y ago
  I'd expect the "receiver"/pot to deform the field enough as to not matter anymore at those distances. Plus, inductive hobs around here tend to detect the presence of a pot and not just try pumping 2kW of energy into "nothing". And you're comparing a dynamically pulsed EM field with the static M field of the alignment magnets - they might be able to heat the reed, but might just not be able actually trigger it (edit: to clarify, that's my guess; I'd expect manufacturers of either devices [ICDs and hobs] to test for potentially lethal problems).
antihero 6y ago
How many people put their phone in their "upper pockets"? Or even have "upper pockets"?
- em10fan 6y ago
  Many men? If you are wearing a suit, a smartphone makes the trouser pockets bulge a lot, so it's common to keep it in your shirt pocket or jacket inside pocket - Both of which is next to your heart.
  - Maxious 6y ago
    The FDA [1] advises "don’t carry the phone in a shirt or jacket pocket directly over the pacemaker." as well as the American Heart Association [2] "Avoid keeping your cell phone in your front chest pocket." 1: https://www.fda.gov/radiation-emitting-products/cell-phones/potential-cell-phone-interference-pacemakers-and-other-medical-devices https://www.fda.gov/radiation-emitting-products/cell-phones/... 2: https://www.heart.org/en/health-topics/arrhythmia/prevention--treatment-of-arrhythmia/devices-that-may-interfere-with-icds-and-pacemakers https://www.heart.org/en/health-topics/arrhythmia/prevention...
    - foepys 6y ago
      They can advise as much as they want, people just do it anyways. Same with smoking, drinking, taking drugs, etc.
      - netsharc 6y ago
        One hopes people with a device keeping them alive would have an incentive to follow instructions, especially if it doesn't involve addictive substances. They also get told to avoid metal detectors, and they know to do this, so it's probably, hopefully, an easy habit to change
  - Mauricebranagh 6y ago
    And quite a lot of shirts do as well.
  - tzs 6y ago
    Perhaps it is time for the codpiece to make a comeback in male business attire, updated for modern times to include a phone pouch.
- manicdee 6y ago
  You mean the one the pocket protector goes in with your drafting pencil and calculator (well, phone in this day and age)?
- Jap2-0 6y ago
  My grandfather always does. He doesn't have a pacemaker, but it may not be as unreasonable of a thing as you might assume.
- mankyd 6y ago
  I do. I don't leave it there generally, but its often easier to get my phone in and out of my shirt pocket when I am seated, crouched, or otherwise actively engaged with something and I don't want to stand up.
- notacoward 6y ago
  You mean like in an inside jacket pocket in parts of the world where it actually gets cold? A lot.
- ajuc 6y ago
  Winter coats very often have upper pockets and they are perfect for big smartphones.
- JohnBooty 6y ago
  A lot of newer (like, last 5-6 years?) jackets have an outer upper chest pocket. ex: https://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/product.do?pid=3397220020504&cid=1053127&pcid=1053127 https://oldnavy.gap.com/browse/product.do?pid=3397220020504&... It's the most convenient place for a phone on your person. Easier than pants pockets if you're sitting down. No fumbling with inside jacket pockets. And you can use your "normal" jacket pockets to keep your hands warm without worrying about your phone falling out.

raverbashing 6y ago

Or, you know, a fridge magnet when carried on a pocket

rob74 6y ago
Hey, cool idea, if I put a small steel plate on the other side, I can wear my favourite fridge magnets instead of pins! Lucky I don't have a pacemaker...

sipos 6y ago

It isn't hard to make them triggered a different way, it is that it is hard to make them reliable enough and triggered a different way. They are designed to be triggered this way because it makes them simple. They are hard to service (requires surgery) and need to be triggered reliably when they are bring triggered. To achieve this, they are made as simply as possible, so have a simple trigger mechanism. Users of them are then told that they have to avoid this situation, by being very careful. One of the instructions anyway is to not keep a phone near them, because of concerns about RF interference. It isn't a case of making another way to trigger pace-makers, it is a case of making a way that is extremely unlikely to fail to work and will remain like that for decades, and where equipment to do it is very cheap. It will then take decades for there not to be people with these devices walking around. If they are changed to work a different way, you also need to equip hospitals around the world with a way to trigger them. Basically, it is really impractical, and it is not as much of a problem as you might think because users should already be hyper aware of the danger of this. Anything you do to change it has a huge risk of killing them because of failing to work if it turns out to be even a tiny bit less reliable after the devices have been inside people for years. Another example of a device that would be a problem like this is my watch. Jewelry that would have similar problems is also common. Things which would be a problem if put close enough are everywhere, but this is always going to be an issue with something like this that is designed to be triggered easily and extremely reliably, and the decision has previously been taken to educate the tiny number of users of them about it rather than go through the unimaginable logistical effort of changing them now (obviously it was much easier when they were new and rare). Edit: removed paragraph about making a warning device that I don't think is worth including here.

elric 6y ago
I don't disagree, but I think you overestimate the ability of people to be careful and aware of their surroundings at all times. Or to even remember that it's an issue. Magnetic fields are invisible. A pacemaker patient I know was unaware of the (potential and low) risk posed by induction hobs. I'm sure this was explained to him, but not everyone is a pacemaker (or magnetic field) expert, nor can we expect everyone to be.