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It's just kind of .. pathetic, to make statements like: > Programming is massively over-complicated for no useful reason And then offer absolutely no justific

It's just kind of .. pathetic, to make statements like: > Programming is massively over-complicated for no useful reason And then offer absolutely no justification for why this is the case, and to shrug off any questions as to what obvious improvements could be made. You offer no useful contributions to the conversation by doing this. None.

user-the-name 6y ago
Well, here's an example: You can develop a fully featured, world-class iOS app, and distribute it, without even touching a command line. Nothing in the process would get easier by touching a command line. You just don't need it. There is a fully-featured environment that provides all the tooling you need without it.
- d3ckard 6y ago
  You do realize some of us use command line not because we have to, but because it’s usually easier to do so?
  - user-the-name 6y ago
    Yes, of course. Because your other tools are so bad that even the command line is easier. I am saying, the fact that those tools are bad is not a given. We could have better tools.
    - d3ckard 6y ago
      And do you have any proof of that? Because in my humble opinion, the command line is great solely because keyboard is (up to now) the best input device we have invented. Any graphical tool requires eye-hand coordination, which slows things down considerably. Using keyboard you basically only depend on your muscle memory and can input commands to the machine way more quickly. What you seem to miss is that developers tools are the best tools created in computer science, period. That's because we use them and we usually are too lazy to deal with stuff that bothers us, so we improve over time(and much faster than we do with tools for our customers). The only real problem is the learning curve, which is hard to avoid. So no, those tools are not bad. They just require some learning first, as pretty much any tool on this planet. And yes, we could have better tools and we will have, that's how progress works. You just didn't make any useful suggestions how to get there faster.
      - user-the-name 6y ago
        The proof is that I develop for iOS, and I do not need to use the command line at all for this. Using it does not make anything easier and more efficient. It live this every day. I can use the command line. I've used it for decades. I know it intimately, and I know just how many problems it has. Problems it doesn't NEED to have, but problems that we have just decided will be there, and we learn them, and live with them, and then complain when someone points out that they are, in fact, problems. Developer tools really, REALLY aren't the best tools created, in any way, shape, or form. They are generally AWFUL. But we've convinced ourselves that we are clever if we know how to use these awful tools.
        d3ckard 6y ago
        You repeat the previous content without any example on how they are better. To you it seems that not having to use command line is an advantage. To me it's not, making your argument moot.
        user-the-name 6y ago
        I am saying that if I were to use the command line, things would not be easier for me. Thus, the GUI tools I have are superior to the command line. I know how to use the command line. I could do it. But there is no reason to do so. It would not do a better job than the tools I have been given in the GUI.
        d3ckard 6y ago
        That solely depends on your use case. There are three reasons to use command line and none of them has anything to do with being easier: 1. It's faster. You can(and will after some time) remember hundreds of different commands. That means that to make computer do something, you just need to type. Typing is usually way faster than clicking in GUI, especially for non-trivial tasks, which require moving through several layers of GUI. 2. It's scriptable. I can automate pretty much anything invokable from command line through. 3. It's gluable. I can connect output of the program to any workflow I imagine. All of those are usually strictly worse in GUI. Of course, GUI has it's uses(analysing data is usually easier in graphical environment) and there is nothing wrong with your personal preference. I object solely to your qualification of CLI being worse just because of your own taste.
- lionkor 6y ago
  And it's very domain-specific, which is why it's super easy to make it so simple.

user-the-name 6y ago

Well, here's an example: You can develop a fully featured, world-class iOS app, and distribute it, without even touching a command line. Nothing in the process would get easier by touching a command line. You just don't need it. There is a fully-featured environment that provides all the tooling you need without it.

d3ckard 6y ago
You do realize some of us use command line not because we have to, but because it’s usually easier to do so?
- user-the-name 6y ago
  Yes, of course. Because your other tools are so bad that even the command line is easier. I am saying, the fact that those tools are bad is not a given. We could have better tools.
  - d3ckard 6y ago
    And do you have any proof of that? Because in my humble opinion, the command line is great solely because keyboard is (up to now) the best input device we have invented. Any graphical tool requires eye-hand coordination, which slows things down considerably. Using keyboard you basically only depend on your muscle memory and can input commands to the machine way more quickly. What you seem to miss is that developers tools are the best tools created in computer science, period. That's because we use them and we usually are too lazy to deal with stuff that bothers us, so we improve over time(and much faster than we do with tools for our customers). The only real problem is the learning curve, which is hard to avoid. So no, those tools are not bad. They just require some learning first, as pretty much any tool on this planet. And yes, we could have better tools and we will have, that's how progress works. You just didn't make any useful suggestions how to get there faster.
    - user-the-name 6y ago
      The proof is that I develop for iOS, and I do not need to use the command line at all for this. Using it does not make anything easier and more efficient. It live this every day. I can use the command line. I've used it for decades. I know it intimately, and I know just how many problems it has. Problems it doesn't NEED to have, but problems that we have just decided will be there, and we learn them, and live with them, and then complain when someone points out that they are, in fact, problems. Developer tools really, REALLY aren't the best tools created, in any way, shape, or form. They are generally AWFUL. But we've convinced ourselves that we are clever if we know how to use these awful tools.
      - d3ckard 6y ago
        You repeat the previous content without any example on how they are better. To you it seems that not having to use command line is an advantage. To me it's not, making your argument moot.
        user-the-name 6y ago
        I am saying that if I were to use the command line, things would not be easier for me. Thus, the GUI tools I have are superior to the command line. I know how to use the command line. I could do it. But there is no reason to do so. It would not do a better job than the tools I have been given in the GUI.
        d3ckard 6y ago
        That solely depends on your use case. There are three reasons to use command line and none of them has anything to do with being easier: 1. It's faster. You can(and will after some time) remember hundreds of different commands. That means that to make computer do something, you just need to type. Typing is usually way faster than clicking in GUI, especially for non-trivial tasks, which require moving through several layers of GUI. 2. It's scriptable. I can automate pretty much anything invokable from command line through. 3. It's gluable. I can connect output of the program to any workflow I imagine. All of those are usually strictly worse in GUI. Of course, GUI has it's uses(analysing data is usually easier in graphical environment) and there is nothing wrong with your personal preference. I object solely to your qualification of CLI being worse just because of your own taste.
lionkor 6y ago
And it's very domain-specific, which is why it's super easy to make it so simple.