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I know it's from Kuo, but these leaks don't pass the smell test for me. It makes no sense for them to add the touchbar to the base model 13" MBPs only to remove

I know it's from Kuo, but these leaks don't pass the smell test for me. It makes no sense for them to add the touchbar to the base model 13" MBPs only to remove them from the higher end versions. It makes even less sense to add more ports which aren't USB-C, as the bits about MagSafe and no dongles imply. Further, I don't understand what is meant by "iPhone 12 like" non-curvy design - I have a 2018 MBP 15", and the sides of this thing are pretty flat and not curved. I mean, these features sound like a dream come true, but I'm having a hard time believing them.

ssijak 6y ago
Who is this guy Kuo anyhow. He always make predictions one year before they almost always become real. Where does he work?
- simonh 6y ago
  He's an analyst at a financial services company, I think TF International Securities currently.
  - dzhiurgis 6y ago
    Yes, but did you ever seen his analysis as first party?
- k3liutZu 6y ago
  Kuo usually uses sources from the asian supply chain. https://www.macrumors.com/guide/ming-chi-kuo/ https://www.macrumors.com/guide/ming-chi-kuo/ He has a pretty good track record.
adrr 6y ago
It will probably be physical keys with screens in them. As seen in this patent. https://www.macrumors.com/2020/12/29/apple-researching-keyboards-with-displays-on-keys/ https://www.macrumors.com/2020/12/29/apple-researching-keybo... Mag safe is going to be on the charging cable and not the computer. Like on old game consoles with wired controllers.
- bartvk 6y ago
  I have the feeling that it's not going to be on the charging cable. Benson Leung often comments that extensions and modifications to USB-C cables are not compliant with the USB-C standard, which Apple helped write. What I could imagine though, is if the charger itself incorporates MagSafe.
  - philjohn 6y ago
    I was under the impression that the "no connectors/extensions" wasn't so much around power delivery, but around the high data rates (40 Gbps) and signal integrity. A charger cable, that only does PD, could have a magnetic break in it without issues.
    - nottorp 6y ago
      I run my usb-c macbook pro with a 3rd party magnetic charge only usb-c cable without issues so yes, it's already been done. However, as opposed to magsafe there's a tiny dongle that stays in the usb-c port. Also, the magnet is weaker than in the old apple magsafes.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
        In my opinion, MagSafe 2 set the gold standard in weak magnets.
        toomanybeersies 6y ago
        In my experience, MagSafe 2 did a fine job at staying attached when pulled directly from the port, and came unstuck easily (as intended by design) when pulled from an angle. I don't remember ever having problems with the charger popping out when it wasn't supposed to. But I also always used it on a desk, rather than sitting it on my lap.
        nottorp 6y ago
        No no no. I have my old magsafe 2 laptop and my new usb-c laptop with 3rd party magnetic. Trust me, Magsafe 2 is stronger.
Kwpolska 6y ago
> remove them from the higher-end versions The 14" MBP will be the new 13", so if that rumor is true, it will be the end of Touch Bar.
- dividedbyzero 6y ago
  That would be sad, I really like the touchbar, and I've seen people use it as makeshift sliders for audio and a mini-midi keyboard, and the context-sensitive recommendations are so much more useful to me than F-keys, I'm just way too lazy do memorize multiple layers for different apps. I really do hope they don't go back to plain F-keys only.
Siyo 6y ago
> It makes no sense for them to add the touchbar to the base model 13" MBPs only to remove them from the higher end versions. Well keep in mind that the first generation Arm MacBooks are basically the same old Intel laptops with their guts replaced. The next generation is probably going to be a completely new design.
- Milner08 6y ago
  Exactly, Thats how they did it before. First revision is the same as the old Macs with the new Arch, then once they are happy with everything they create a whole new design.
- square_usual 6y ago
  But there were old gen Intel 13" MBPs without the touch bar. They added those into the M1 macs that replaced those old models. Clearly, they could simply have... not, if they were indeed thinking of removing the touchbar entirely.
  - zuhsetaqi 6y ago
    Last Intel MacBook Pro generation before M1 had all TouchBar
    - gurkendoktor 6y ago
      But why didn't they revive the 2018 version of the Intel MBP that didn't have the TouchBar? It would have fit perfectly as it was also a two-port model. Maybe it has to do with the keyboard being broken in the 2018 model, but (to this layman) it sounds easier to fix that than to add support for the TouchBar on Apple Silicon for a single (!) temporary hardware model. Now they have to keep that TouchBar code around in AppKit even after they inevitably drop Intel support. Extremely curious decision.
      - luche 6y ago
        i'd wager it's either a hardware requirement (reusing existing components) to not have to build a different design prior to a full refresh with the new arch, or kind of a trial run for Apple to see how many would prefer a slightly cheaper design without the touchbar. The differences of the Pro vs Air are quite minimal. Where I do like the fanless design, I was concerned of thermal concerns on the Air, but there was no way that I'll ever buy a touchbar product from Apple ever again, so I took a shot with the Air. Pleasantly surprised with heat/energy/battery, and couldn't be happier to have the physical F key row back. M1 Air is hands down the best MacBook I've used since the 2015 MacBook Pro.
habosa 6y ago
For non-curvy design think "Pixelbook" which has two totally flat halves that come together with a cool hinge. Not saying that's where they're going, but that's a modern laptop design that reminds me more of an iPhone 12
- square_usual 6y ago
  Ah, I see. The lid and bottom of the MBP have a slight convexity, which they could flatten out to make it more like an iPhone 12.
mqrs 6y ago
I wonder if removing the Touch Bar has something to do with prepping up the line for gaming. I personally don't dislike the Touch Bar except when I'm playing video games, and Apple Silicon is on a trajectory to be able to run games on a Mac with fairly decent graphics.
- villgax 6y ago
  The fact that it even plays Tomb Raider at 24FPS is mind boggling with integrated graphics
reportgunner 6y ago
They probably added them to the lower end models to dump the parts stock as they knew the next generation will not have touchbars.
Grustaf 6y ago
I think the first batch of M1 macs should be seen as continuity machines, they made the processor the only differentiating factor in order to make the transition trivial for consumers. About the sides, i was confused at first but I think the idea is that they will do what they did to the ipad. Compare the first ipad to the ipad pro, the pro lies flat on the table but the first one (and to some extent all ipads before the 2018 pro) has a curved bottom like a boat.
villgax 6y ago
He means the lid surfaces on the top & bottom not the curved corners
Tade0 6y ago
> It makes no sense for them to add the touchbar to the base model 13" MBPs only to remove them from the higher end versions. Perhaps the idea is that those who buy the base model - regular consumers - like the touchbar, and those who buy the higher-end versions, that is, professionals - don't. I'm sure some pricing specialist figured that out. Say what you want about Apple, but their sales department knows how to squeeze as much revenue from their customers as they can.
- gurkendoktor 6y ago
  But then why add the TouchBar to the MBP and not the MacBook Air instead? I actually think that the TouchBar would be more popular if it was a consumer thing instead of a "Pro" differentiator. I can't be the only professional who ordered a cheaper M1 MacBook Air specifically because I want to avoid the TouchBar. If the pricing specialist is playing 4D chess then I don't get it.
  - Tade0 6y ago
    I would like to know as well, but whatever they're doing it's working.
jasnk 6y ago
Perhaps the new MacBook Pro supports USB-C charging AND wireless charging? MagSafe in this context could be referring to wireless charging. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagSafe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagSafe The quote from Kuo specifically mentions MagSafe charging connector design, but he could have mistakenly assumed his source was still referring to the wired connector if they mentioned MagSafe. Curious about changes to I/O ports. I would expect additional (more than two) USB-C ports, but unsure which I/O types may be considered a "standard" need for pro users at this point. Perhaps video output and/or legacy USB? The touch bar is visually appealing and likely great for most consumers, but the bar has not been as functional as physical function keys during my time touch-typing/ programming due to lack of tactile feedback. I frequently have to look at the bar, else I tap the wrong button. I often trigger the bar unintentionally while hovering over number keys. I am thankful the M1 Pro has an Escape key. I would be very likely to upgrade to a higher end MacBook Pro to have physical function keys again.
- zshift 6y ago
  Wirelessly charging a laptop would waste so much energy. I really hope this isn’t what they’re planning.
  - Klathmon 6y ago
    I'm not sure that's true. I believe modern wireless chargers are around 75% to 85% efficient. That sounds bad at first, but I believe most ac-dc charging bricks are in the 80% to 90% efficiency range, so it's actually not much worse at all. And if it really is magsafe, the "secret sauce" there is the magnets will align things almost perfectly every time avoiding unaligned charging coils.
    - theblindbat 6y ago
      But aren't you going AC->DC->wireless? So it would stack
    - AlexandrB 6y ago
      There's still a charging brick powering the wireless charger so isn't the 75-85% stacked on top of the 80-90%? That gives you 56-77% efficiency.
whywhywhywhy 6y ago
> I know it's from Kuo, but these leaks don't pass the smell test for me. It makes no sense for them to add the touchbar to the base model 13" MBPs only to remove them from the higher end versions What if the new model had a touch screen?
- mgkimsal 6y ago
  or the trackpad was a full 'touch' screen?
kevindong 6y ago
Kuo has a remarkable track record of being right, but he's not perfect. Currently he's ~78.2% accurate. https://appletrack.org/ming-chi-kuo/ https://appletrack.org/ming-chi-kuo/
- hajile 6y ago
  Looking through that list, there's several predictions about late 2020 that didn't happen and most predictions he's made were far enough out to still be pending. In addition, lots of "correct guesses" were pretty basic things. Not saying this won't come to be, but his actual accuracy where it counts seems much lower than indicated.
- ksec 6y ago
  In his defence I would say that is pretty close to perfect. His sources isn't some made up contact from within Apple like all those Youtubers, or leaks from China WeiBo and then turn into some news. His sources are from Supply Chain, and if you look at it from that perspective it has been pretty dead accurate. For Example, most of his Red ( Wrong ) are either Apple Release Date, or Pricing. Both are those are unpredictable by Supply Chain. Apple could change their pricing strategy at any min. But those Release Date and Pricing were derived from possible Production Schedule and Total BOM cost reduction. Both have been insanely accurate. There are other derived conclusion. Like Longer battery life, which was derived from having lager Battery capacity and better Display energy efficiency, except Apple implemented other features so battery life stays flat. Things like iPhone having same water resistance, from his point of view none of the water resistance steps had any make over. So no change in water resistance from 2018 were exactly correct. It is just that Apple felt confidence enough the same process could now be advertise with better water resistance capacity. i.e They were too conservative with the iPhone XS water resistance claim. Not even sure why Pro Display XDR going Mini-LED in 2019 is suggested as wrong either. Of course there are things he would be wrong. Especially those small volume products. With iPhone you cant really hide, after all there are hundreds of companies working to make sure a product shipping a 100M unit annual volume. Leaks in supply chain are bound to happen.
minimaxir 6y ago
Bloomberg is matching the rumors. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-15/apple-macbook-pros-with-magsafe-return-in-the-works https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-15/apple-mac...
thismodernlife 6y ago
If they release a new form factor I would imagine the current “starter” M1 MacBook Pro with touch bar will be retired so this won’t be a problem. Perhaps they’ll make Touch Bar an optional extra.
rconti 6y ago
Sides are flat, but there's a curve into the screen and the bottom. There's already a sharp edge in that transition, though, which.. is sharp. I'm not sure it would be wise to turn the device into a total brick with 90 degree edges all around.
ksec 6y ago
He did specifically mention high power charging on Non-USB C. One of the problem with High Power, USB-C charging is the higher probability of frying the MacBook. As it has been since post 2015 MacBook Pro. From a reliability stand point this isn't any good at all. The insane amount of MacBook Pro with this problem on Louis Rossmann channel Not all USB-C Cable are capable of charging up to 100W, most are only 28W. You need specific 100W, thicker cable to charge it. Of course HN have no problem with this but majority of people will charge it with whatever USB-C cable they have lying around. i.e Smartphone low power cable. But HN seems to value charging everything with USB-C over everything else. And seems to take a world view anyone who dont know enough about USB-C cable or do not buy all USB-C High Power Cable as "mis-informed" if I had to word it politely. >And the sides of this thing are pretty flat and not curved. He meant the top and the bottom. Currently being slightly curved on the lip and the bottom edge of the machine.

ssijak 6y ago

Who is this guy Kuo anyhow. He always make predictions one year before they almost always become real. Where does he work?

simonh 6y ago
He's an analyst at a financial services company, I think TF International Securities currently.
- dzhiurgis 6y ago
  Yes, but did you ever seen his analysis as first party?
k3liutZu 6y ago
Kuo usually uses sources from the asian supply chain. https://www.macrumors.com/guide/ming-chi-kuo/ https://www.macrumors.com/guide/ming-chi-kuo/ He has a pretty good track record.

adrr 6y ago

It will probably be physical keys with screens in them. As seen in this patent. https://www.macrumors.com/2020/12/29/apple-researching-keyboards-with-displays-on-keys/ https://www.macrumors.com/2020/12/29/apple-researching-keybo... Mag safe is going to be on the charging cable and not the computer. Like on old game consoles with wired controllers.

bartvk 6y ago
I have the feeling that it's not going to be on the charging cable. Benson Leung often comments that extensions and modifications to USB-C cables are not compliant with the USB-C standard, which Apple helped write. What I could imagine though, is if the charger itself incorporates MagSafe.
- philjohn 6y ago
  I was under the impression that the "no connectors/extensions" wasn't so much around power delivery, but around the high data rates (40 Gbps) and signal integrity. A charger cable, that only does PD, could have a magnetic break in it without issues.
  - nottorp 6y ago
    I run my usb-c macbook pro with a 3rd party magnetic charge only usb-c cable without issues so yes, it's already been done. However, as opposed to magsafe there's a tiny dongle that stays in the usb-c port. Also, the magnet is weaker than in the old apple magsafes.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 6y ago
      In my opinion, MagSafe 2 set the gold standard in weak magnets.
      - toomanybeersies 6y ago
        In my experience, MagSafe 2 did a fine job at staying attached when pulled directly from the port, and came unstuck easily (as intended by design) when pulled from an angle. I don't remember ever having problems with the charger popping out when it wasn't supposed to. But I also always used it on a desk, rather than sitting it on my lap.
      - nottorp 6y ago
        No no no. I have my old magsafe 2 laptop and my new usb-c laptop with 3rd party magnetic. Trust me, Magsafe 2 is stronger.

Kwpolska 6y ago

> remove them from the higher-end versions The 14" MBP will be the new 13", so if that rumor is true, it will be the end of Touch Bar.

dividedbyzero 6y ago
That would be sad, I really like the touchbar, and I've seen people use it as makeshift sliders for audio and a mini-midi keyboard, and the context-sensitive recommendations are so much more useful to me than F-keys, I'm just way too lazy do memorize multiple layers for different apps. I really do hope they don't go back to plain F-keys only.

Siyo 6y ago

> It makes no sense for them to add the touchbar to the base model 13" MBPs only to remove them from the higher end versions. Well keep in mind that the first generation Arm MacBooks are basically the same old Intel laptops with their guts replaced. The next generation is probably going to be a completely new design.

Milner08 6y ago
Exactly, Thats how they did it before. First revision is the same as the old Macs with the new Arch, then once they are happy with everything they create a whole new design.
square_usual 6y ago
But there were old gen Intel 13" MBPs without the touch bar. They added those into the M1 macs that replaced those old models. Clearly, they could simply have... not, if they were indeed thinking of removing the touchbar entirely.
- zuhsetaqi 6y ago
  Last Intel MacBook Pro generation before M1 had all TouchBar
  - gurkendoktor 6y ago
    But why didn't they revive the 2018 version of the Intel MBP that didn't have the TouchBar? It would have fit perfectly as it was also a two-port model. Maybe it has to do with the keyboard being broken in the 2018 model, but (to this layman) it sounds easier to fix that than to add support for the TouchBar on Apple Silicon for a single (!) temporary hardware model. Now they have to keep that TouchBar code around in AppKit even after they inevitably drop Intel support. Extremely curious decision.
    - luche 6y ago
      i'd wager it's either a hardware requirement (reusing existing components) to not have to build a different design prior to a full refresh with the new arch, or kind of a trial run for Apple to see how many would prefer a slightly cheaper design without the touchbar. The differences of the Pro vs Air are quite minimal. Where I do like the fanless design, I was concerned of thermal concerns on the Air, but there was no way that I'll ever buy a touchbar product from Apple ever again, so I took a shot with the Air. Pleasantly surprised with heat/energy/battery, and couldn't be happier to have the physical F key row back. M1 Air is hands down the best MacBook I've used since the 2015 MacBook Pro.

habosa 6y ago

For non-curvy design think "Pixelbook" which has two totally flat halves that come together with a cool hinge. Not saying that's where they're going, but that's a modern laptop design that reminds me more of an iPhone 12

square_usual 6y ago
Ah, I see. The lid and bottom of the MBP have a slight convexity, which they could flatten out to make it more like an iPhone 12.

mqrs 6y ago

I wonder if removing the Touch Bar has something to do with prepping up the line for gaming. I personally don't dislike the Touch Bar except when I'm playing video games, and Apple Silicon is on a trajectory to be able to run games on a Mac with fairly decent graphics.

villgax 6y ago
The fact that it even plays Tomb Raider at 24FPS is mind boggling with integrated graphics

reportgunner 6y ago

They probably added them to the lower end models to dump the parts stock as they knew the next generation will not have touchbars.

Grustaf 6y ago

I think the first batch of M1 macs should be seen as continuity machines, they made the processor the only differentiating factor in order to make the transition trivial for consumers. About the sides, i was confused at first but I think the idea is that they will do what they did to the ipad. Compare the first ipad to the ipad pro, the pro lies flat on the table but the first one (and to some extent all ipads before the 2018 pro) has a curved bottom like a boat.

villgax 6y ago

He means the lid surfaces on the top & bottom not the curved corners

Tade0 6y ago

> It makes no sense for them to add the touchbar to the base model 13" MBPs only to remove them from the higher end versions. Perhaps the idea is that those who buy the base model - regular consumers - like the touchbar, and those who buy the higher-end versions, that is, professionals - don't. I'm sure some pricing specialist figured that out. Say what you want about Apple, but their sales department knows how to squeeze as much revenue from their customers as they can.

gurkendoktor 6y ago
But then why add the TouchBar to the MBP and not the MacBook Air instead? I actually think that the TouchBar would be more popular if it was a consumer thing instead of a "Pro" differentiator. I can't be the only professional who ordered a cheaper M1 MacBook Air specifically because I want to avoid the TouchBar. If the pricing specialist is playing 4D chess then I don't get it.
- Tade0 6y ago
  I would like to know as well, but whatever they're doing it's working.

jasnk 6y ago

Perhaps the new MacBook Pro supports USB-C charging AND wireless charging? MagSafe in this context could be referring to wireless charging. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagSafe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagSafe The quote from Kuo specifically mentions MagSafe charging connector design, but he could have mistakenly assumed his source was still referring to the wired connector if they mentioned MagSafe. Curious about changes to I/O ports. I would expect additional (more than two) USB-C ports, but unsure which I/O types may be considered a "standard" need for pro users at this point. Perhaps video output and/or legacy USB? The touch bar is visually appealing and likely great for most consumers, but the bar has not been as functional as physical function keys during my time touch-typing/ programming due to lack of tactile feedback. I frequently have to look at the bar, else I tap the wrong button. I often trigger the bar unintentionally while hovering over number keys. I am thankful the M1 Pro has an Escape key. I would be very likely to upgrade to a higher end MacBook Pro to have physical function keys again.

zshift 6y ago
Wirelessly charging a laptop would waste so much energy. I really hope this isn’t what they’re planning.
- Klathmon 6y ago
  I'm not sure that's true. I believe modern wireless chargers are around 75% to 85% efficient. That sounds bad at first, but I believe most ac-dc charging bricks are in the 80% to 90% efficiency range, so it's actually not much worse at all. And if it really is magsafe, the "secret sauce" there is the magnets will align things almost perfectly every time avoiding unaligned charging coils.
  - theblindbat 6y ago
    But aren't you going AC->DC->wireless? So it would stack
  - AlexandrB 6y ago
    There's still a charging brick powering the wireless charger so isn't the 75-85% stacked on top of the 80-90%? That gives you 56-77% efficiency.

whywhywhywhy 6y ago

> I know it's from Kuo, but these leaks don't pass the smell test for me. It makes no sense for them to add the touchbar to the base model 13" MBPs only to remove them from the higher end versions What if the new model had a touch screen?

mgkimsal 6y ago
or the trackpad was a full 'touch' screen?

kevindong 6y ago

Kuo has a remarkable track record of being right, but he's not perfect. Currently he's ~78.2% accurate. https://appletrack.org/ming-chi-kuo/ https://appletrack.org/ming-chi-kuo/

hajile 6y ago
Looking through that list, there's several predictions about late 2020 that didn't happen and most predictions he's made were far enough out to still be pending. In addition, lots of "correct guesses" were pretty basic things. Not saying this won't come to be, but his actual accuracy where it counts seems much lower than indicated.
ksec 6y ago
In his defence I would say that is pretty close to perfect. His sources isn't some made up contact from within Apple like all those Youtubers, or leaks from China WeiBo and then turn into some news. His sources are from Supply Chain, and if you look at it from that perspective it has been pretty dead accurate. For Example, most of his Red ( Wrong ) are either Apple Release Date, or Pricing. Both are those are unpredictable by Supply Chain. Apple could change their pricing strategy at any min. But those Release Date and Pricing were derived from possible Production Schedule and Total BOM cost reduction. Both have been insanely accurate. There are other derived conclusion. Like Longer battery life, which was derived from having lager Battery capacity and better Display energy efficiency, except Apple implemented other features so battery life stays flat. Things like iPhone having same water resistance, from his point of view none of the water resistance steps had any make over. So no change in water resistance from 2018 were exactly correct. It is just that Apple felt confidence enough the same process could now be advertise with better water resistance capacity. i.e They were too conservative with the iPhone XS water resistance claim. Not even sure why Pro Display XDR going Mini-LED in 2019 is suggested as wrong either. Of course there are things he would be wrong. Especially those small volume products. With iPhone you cant really hide, after all there are hundreds of companies working to make sure a product shipping a 100M unit annual volume. Leaks in supply chain are bound to happen.

minimaxir 6y ago

Bloomberg is matching the rumors. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-15/apple-macbook-pros-with-magsafe-return-in-the-works https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-15/apple-mac...

thismodernlife 6y ago

If they release a new form factor I would imagine the current “starter” M1 MacBook Pro with touch bar will be retired so this won’t be a problem. Perhaps they’ll make Touch Bar an optional extra.

rconti 6y ago

Sides are flat, but there's a curve into the screen and the bottom. There's already a sharp edge in that transition, though, which.. is sharp. I'm not sure it would be wise to turn the device into a total brick with 90 degree edges all around.

ksec 6y ago

He did specifically mention high power charging on Non-USB C. One of the problem with High Power, USB-C charging is the higher probability of frying the MacBook. As it has been since post 2015 MacBook Pro. From a reliability stand point this isn't any good at all. The insane amount of MacBook Pro with this problem on Louis Rossmann channel Not all USB-C Cable are capable of charging up to 100W, most are only 28W. You need specific 100W, thicker cable to charge it. Of course HN have no problem with this but majority of people will charge it with whatever USB-C cable they have lying around. i.e Smartphone low power cable. But HN seems to value charging everything with USB-C over everything else. And seems to take a world view anyone who dont know enough about USB-C cable or do not buy all USB-C High Power Cable as "mis-informed" if I had to word it politely. >And the sides of this thing are pretty flat and not curved. He meant the top and the bottom. Currently being slightly curved on the lip and the bottom edge of the machine.