3 ms·

300 kg CO2e per kWh, for a lithium battery pack. Shit. EVs are worse than I thought!

by ppf 6y ago

ajfjrbfbf 6y ago
Now account for recycling that battery after the few thousands charge cycles have been exhausted. EVs are not a panacea. Instead, we should look more into collective transport, better urban planning, more bike lanes, etc. Cars are a cultural issue, and more cars won't solve the problem, whether electric or not.
- ppf 6y ago
  I can't do that, as an effective and large-scale method of recycling lithium batteries (and more specifically, one that can extract the lithium, as well as other elements) does not yet exist, so we have no idea how much energy it would take to do so. It is true that the small-scale methods currently being investigated cannot compete with the existing supply of raw material. You are right though, EVs are not the solution.
jiggawatts 6y ago
That's cherry-picking the number from the upper range of estimates, and is glossing over the fact that hydrocarbon fuels also have production costs that can be measured in CO2e before they're burned and become tailpipe emissions. Source: https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/EV-life-cycle-GHG_ICCT-Briefing_09022018_vF.pdf https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/EV-life... Additionally, Tesla's relatively cost-effective (and hence energy-efficient) manufacturing of battery packs will bring this down, probably to well under 100 kg. Source: https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/22/21450916/tesla-battery-pack-elon-musk-price-kilowatt-hour-ev-cost-tabless https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/22/21450916/tesla-battery-pa... Another way to look at this kind of thing is to directly convert dollars into CO2. This is assuming that all "economic activity" directly or indirectly uses energy, and that most energy is fossil-fuel based. This is actually a good way to estimate the maximum energy usage, because energy is fungible but businesses aren't a charity. They'll sell you something for the energy cost plus profit, but not less than the base energy cost. A Tesla replacement pack costs roughly $15K and a matching solar panel to charge it would cost about $10K. That's the equivalent to burning $25K of a fuel such as petrol. Even before the pandemic, my fuel costs were quite low at about $1.5K/year, so it would have taken nearly 17 years to break even! An Uber driver might be able to achieve a net benefit for the environment in under a year.
- ppf 6y ago
  I already pointed out it's on the slightly higher end of esimtates, but it is reasonably accurate. Regardless of Musk's promises, EV battery pack manufacture takes a lot of energy. Given that you say hydrocarbon fuels (which are typically what power all of the manufacturing processes in question) have their own energy cost, they also need to be added to the EV side of the equation. I also prefer, in general, to stick to measurements of energy usage, and not CO2e or dollars, because energy usage is what matters. The rest can be manipulated by legislation, and leave too much to interpretation. If I burn some coal to power my manufacturing plant, that's a lot of CO2. If I burn a load of timber from a virgin rainforest to do the same, that's zero CO2, because that is defined as "sustainable".

300 kg CO2e per kWh, for a lithium battery pack. Shit. EVs are worse than I thought!

by ppf 6y ago

300 kg CO2e per kWh, for a lithium battery pack. Shit. EVs are worse than I thought!

Now account for recycling that battery after the few thousands charge cycles have been exhausted. EVs are not a panacea. Instead, we should look more into collective transport, better urban planning, more bike lanes, etc. Cars are a cultural issue, and more cars won't solve the problem, whether electric or not.

ppf 6y ago
I can't do that, as an effective and large-scale method of recycling lithium batteries (and more specifically, one that can extract the lithium, as well as other elements) does not yet exist, so we have no idea how much energy it would take to do so. It is true that the small-scale methods currently being investigated cannot compete with the existing supply of raw material. You are right though, EVs are not the solution.

jiggawatts 6y ago

That's cherry-picking the number from the upper range of estimates, and is glossing over the fact that hydrocarbon fuels also have production costs that can be measured in CO2e before they're burned and become tailpipe emissions. Source: https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/EV-life-cycle-GHG_ICCT-Briefing_09022018_vF.pdf https://theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/EV-life... Additionally, Tesla's relatively cost-effective (and hence energy-efficient) manufacturing of battery packs will bring this down, probably to well under 100 kg. Source: https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/22/21450916/tesla-battery-pack-elon-musk-price-kilowatt-hour-ev-cost-tabless https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/22/21450916/tesla-battery-pa... Another way to look at this kind of thing is to directly convert dollars into CO2. This is assuming that all "economic activity" directly or indirectly uses energy, and that most energy is fossil-fuel based. This is actually a good way to estimate the maximum energy usage, because energy is fungible but businesses aren't a charity. They'll sell you something for the energy cost plus profit, but not less than the base energy cost. A Tesla replacement pack costs roughly $15K and a matching solar panel to charge it would cost about $10K. That's the equivalent to burning $25K of a fuel such as petrol. Even before the pandemic, my fuel costs were quite low at about $1.5K/year, so it would have taken nearly 17 years to break even! An Uber driver might be able to achieve a net benefit for the environment in under a year.

ppf 6y ago
I already pointed out it's on the slightly higher end of esimtates, but it is reasonably accurate. Regardless of Musk's promises, EV battery pack manufacture takes a lot of energy. Given that you say hydrocarbon fuels (which are typically what power all of the manufacturing processes in question) have their own energy cost, they also need to be added to the EV side of the equation. I also prefer, in general, to stick to measurements of energy usage, and not CO2e or dollars, because energy usage is what matters. The rest can be manipulated by legislation, and leave too much to interpretation. If I burn some coal to power my manufacturing plant, that's a lot of CO2. If I burn a load of timber from a virgin rainforest to do the same, that's zero CO2, because that is defined as "sustainable".