9 ms·

Debian 11 “bullseye” freeze started

135 points by psxuaw 6y ago

Mathnerd314 6y ago
They're considering dropping i386, which is interesting. Does anyone know more about that?
- HDMI_Cable 6y ago
  I think it may be because the software packages for i386 are closed-source, but don't quote me on that.
  - freeone3000 6y ago
    It's because in 2021, i386 processors are obsolescent. The last non-amd64 processor that ran x86 is the Pentium 4E from 2004, a 17-year-old machine. The packages will still be available as long as there's a maintainer, but it's not worth packaging a full debian release for such a small and shrinking portion of the userbase.
    - lmm 6y ago
      > The last non-amd64 processor that ran x86 is the Pentium 4E from 2004, a 17-year-old machine. Atom CPUs without x86_64 support were released up until 2013.
      - realdense 6y ago
        Debian Buster LTS is supported until 2024 and then probably ELTS until 2026. Also how many of these 32-bit Atom CPUs are actually in use anymore? It's a pretty edge case.
        lmm 6y ago
        Debian is (or at least used to be) popular for old hardware - e.g. they supported m68k for longer than most distros. I had an i386 Atom netbook that I was using up until about a year ago, and if I hadn't moved internationally I'd probably still use it.
        arpa 6y ago
        I run my home automation on atom. Considering that cost of asus eee pc is around $70 it still is a lucrative option of a complete system compared to raspberry.
    - walrus01 6y ago
      The Intel Core Duo (such as found in the 1st generation Intel macbook pro) from 2006) is not 64-bit capable.
    - flukus 6y ago
      But i386 will still run on 64 bit hardware. A place I was working recently was insisting on sticking to 32 bit linux while they migrated off Solaris, mostly for stupid reasons on code that wasn't too hard to port, but just because the hardware is no longer compatible doesn't mean the software is, especially for any proprietary software that will never be upgraded.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
- cipherboy 6y ago
  Fedora has considered and largely executed on the same: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Stop_Building_i686_Kernels https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Stop_Building_i686_Ke... We still build packages for it, e.g., https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=1669667 https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=166966... Some other related discussion: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/T5ZV5WCJ7U7BFQXC6RTNG3AIHXOORYOC/ https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fe...
- shmerl 6y ago
  I hope it means dropping the i386 distro, not dropping i386 multiarch which is still needed like for older 32-bit games and such. I don't see much value in i386 distro these days.
  - megous 6y ago
    Debian keeps IBM Thinkpad T41 alive. :)
  - pabs3 6y ago
    386 distro and i386 multiarch are pretty much one and the same for Debian, we don't have any "cut-down" ports without a kernel, bootloaders etc.
    - shmerl 6y ago
      Well, then they shouldn't be. It's less of an overhead to maintain packages that focus on multiarch use cases and drop ones that focus on making it an i386 hardware targeted distro.
- lmm 6y ago
  I'm guessing that fewer maintainers are running i386 to the point where i386 is not "tested by default". So they're asking porters to step up and take over testing/maintaining packages for i386 if they want the i386 releases to continue.
- mappu 6y ago
  Time64 is the death of i386 - the time_t structure needs to be expanded to 64-bit to handle dates beyond 2038, but that's an ABI break, and the primary reason anyone still runs 32-bit binaries is for closed-source games which won't come along for an ABI upgrade. You can either do the ABI break and lose most existing users when the main set of apps stop working, or have the main set of apps stop working anyway in 2038.
  - ncmncm 6y ago
    You could switch it to unsigned 32-bit time_t, and most things would still work right up to 2106. With any luck, civilization will collapse by 2038 and it won't matter anyway. But, struggling back up from collapse on scavenged 32-bit microcontrollers powered by scavenged solar panels, we won't need the extra burden of post-y2038. Switch to unsigned 32-bit time_t for the sake of the (surviving) grandkids.
    - jabl 6y ago
      You keep saying this, but you're too late. The 64-bit signed time_t path was already chosen long ago and is being implemented.
      - ncmncm 6y ago
        Not on those.
  - jabl 6y ago
    The kernel has already been fixed, but userspace (glibc) is AFAICS still in progress. Glibc is going to do it in a similar fashion to large file support (LFS), where if you define some particular macros you get the 64-bit time_t interfaces, otherwise you'll continue with the old 32-bit time_t. Similarly, existing binaries will continue to work, so in order to take advantage of 64-bit time_t you need to recompile (with those macros set, and fixing any resulting problems of course).
- pmarin 6y ago
  Can you provide a link about this?
gautamcgoel 6y ago
Debian is an amazing project. I love how it's so fundamental but doesn't call attention or hype to itself. It's used by millions but doesn't try to be sexy or glamorous. Even the website is minimal.
- edoceo 6y ago
  Also, it "just works". It's so reliable that I almost forget it's there. 10+ years in production and not once an OS/distro bang-up.
  - mbreese 6y ago
    As an outsider, it's not the reliability of the software that is amazing to me. It's the governance and management of the project. The distro has managed to be amazingly consistent and stable for years. But the reason for this is how the project is run. It's hard to do that for so long with minimal drama and they deserve tons for kudos for that effort. Like some others, where CentOS was my go-to distro, I've started moving over to Debian as my distro of choice when I can. Thus far, I've been very happy with this choice.
    - edoceo 6y ago
      100%. That management makes it happen. I think we all (who can afford it) should send them a few bucks.
      - ce4 6y ago
        You're right. I just did that.
    - shmerl 6y ago
      There is some fun drama though, but overall it's indeed minimal. See: http://aaonline.fr/search.php?search&criteria[sequenceId-is]=6512_en_Debian%20init%20case http://aaonline.fr/search.php?search&criteria[sequenceId-is]... 1. http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=57684 http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=57684 2. http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=57899 http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=57899 3. http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=58428 http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=58428 4. http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=60363 http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=60363 5. http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=69970 http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=69970 6. http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=70639 http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=70639 7. http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=71040 http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=71040 8. http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=71116 http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=71116 9. http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=71715 http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=71715
gtirloni 6y ago
Following the recent CentOS fiasco, I'm advising friends to go with Debian. It's rock solid and can be depended upon.
- alexdumitru 6y ago
  I've switched from CentOS to Debian 7-8 years ago (Debian 7) and I just love it. I was trying a lot of distros, but I always came back to Debian and I stopped doing that for the past few years because Debian just works.
- nerdponx 6y ago
  Maybe for servers. But it still has plenty of rough edges as a desktop OS. Mint is a much better choice (IMO) for the desktop, that still is somewhat within the Debian ecosystem.
  - jbirer 6y ago
    What are your rough edges? I have found Debian Unstable with latest Gnome to be way more stable and productive than I expected.
    - flukus 6y ago
      I'm not sure if they count as rough edges, but most common things I've come across tend to be security related and the limitations on a normal user. From (foggy) memory you can't sudo by default, and you also can't mount as a normal user. These things are probably perfectly reasonable choices to make for a secure server but annoying for a desktop. This may not count as desktop, but another annoying one is /usr/sbin and some other common directories being missing from the default PATH. Still, it's way less annoying than ubuntu's constant nagging about updates and trying to shove snap in your face.
    - vdfs 6y ago
      For me it was outdated browsers, i switched from Ubuntu just for Chromium and was shocked when i saw the version available, not just Chromium but also Firefox, they backport fixes but don't release new version to stable channel. Not really comfortable using Unstable/Testing channels which my have newer version. It's also hard to download first time you want to install, coming from Ubuntu there is just one x64 .iso and one big "download" button that auto select the right file. In Debian i had to google which file to download from CDs and DVDs version just for x64. And there is the install UI, it give you a 2006 vibe. This small things are easy to fix but still there for some reason, probably because they focus on core and more important stuff, but this are great things to have for new users.
jeppesen-io 6y ago
Not my distro of choice, but I very much respect their work and product
- thatwasunusual 6y ago
  What is your distro of choice?
  - jeppesen-io 6y ago
    Big fan of NixOS - It's a hard start but rewarding
    - thatwasunusual 6y ago
      Why?
passthejoe 6y ago
I just installed yesterday. I tried an in-place upgrade from Buster, but that didn't work, so I did a new install. So far, so good. It's an interesting time to be running Bullseye because it includes GNOME 3.38, which is what you get in Fedora 33 and Ubuntu 20.10.
- mappu 6y ago
  I hit the gcc8 / libgcc-s1 migration problem when trying an in-place upgrade from Buster to Bullseye. I'm sure it will be resolved before the final release, but the issue for me was https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=961990 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=961990 and several workarounds were available, but running `apt full-upgrade libgcc1-` worked for me as per https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=964477#41 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=964477#41 .
magicalhippo 6y ago
I've been using Debian or Debian derived distros for quite a while, everything from straight up Debian on various servers, Armbian for my SBC's, to my secondary PC running Kubuntu and later KDE Neon. For me as a more casual Linux user, it's great as it essentially "just works" and I don't have to invest a great deal of time to fiddle with auxiliary things. However, if I could get one wish, it was to ditch the codenames. As someone who's not on the dev mailing list, I find it so confusing when people reference the Debian version just by codename and have to search just about every time to make sure I understand what's what. Regardless, a big thanks to the contributors!
- pabs3 6y ago
  If it helps, the list of Debian codenames is here: https://www.debian.org/releases/ https://www.debian.org/releases/
  - cf100clunk 6y ago
    Also the corresponding Devuan (systemd-free Debian) release names, with "Bullseye" equating to "Chimera": https://www.devuan.org/os/releases https://www.devuan.org/os/releases
- snowwindwaves 6y ago
  The code names make issues with specific versions or eras easy to search
  - shasheene 6y ago
    Ubuntu at least does it in alphabetical order of the first letter of the codename. Eg, the release after Ubuntu 20.04 Focal was Ubuntu 20.10 Groovy. This means that hearing the Ubuntu codename "Bionic" provides some information: it was 4 releases before Focal. But Debian codenames are arbitrarily based on characters from the movie Toy Story, so there's no relation to the Debian release. To fix this, I propose for future releases the Debian codename naming scheme be replaced with numbers written out in words. Eg. Debian 14 (fourteen) Debian 13 (thirteen) Debian 12 (twelve) Debian 11 (bullseye) Debian 10 (buster) Debian 9 (stretch) Debian 8 (jessie) This retains the ability to easily search for eg, "Debian Thirteen", while making it much easier to remember earlier codenames as time goes on. Also unlike Ubuntu's alphabetical naming scheme, the number approach doesn't have any overflow issues (which isn't as big of an issue anyway because Debian's provides new releases every 2 years instead of 6 monthly).
zackmorris 6y ago
Debian is my favorite distro for web dev, but, MIPS is also near and dear to my heart since I learned its hardware architecture in college. I view MIPS as the simplest possible instruction set that satisfies most of the modern scalability constraints (RISC, short pipeline, etc). It will likely be replaced by something like ARM which also incorporates instruction compression for basically free (since memory latency matters more than computing power more with each passing year). So I'm sad to see them remove MIPS support since I think next-gen 16+ core processors will probably use it. But, after reviving more failing projects than I can count, it's not a huge deal to use old commits to re-implement functionality. Most of that work is probably around stuff like endianness issues, atomic instructions, protected memory, caching, etc etc etc. If it helps them to set it aside for now, great, but I hope that MIPS support returns someday is all I'm saying.
- hlieberman 6y ago
  MIPS (Little Endian) and MIPS64 (LE) are still fully supported architectures!
  - abrowne 6y ago
    Are you sure for mips? It says (emphasis added) > We have decided that the architectures that will be part of the bullseye release are: amd64, arm64, armel, armhf, i386, mips64el, mipsel, ppc64el and s390x (i.e. the same we had for buster minus mips).
    - SAI_Peregrinus 6y ago
      "mips64el, mipsel" Those are MIPS, but Little-Endian instead of Big-Endian.
      - abrowne 6y ago
        Thanks, got it now, I was confused by the differing notations. (I thought the parenthetical was a description, not a name.) Listening to my MIPS internet radio now FWIW (Pure brand).
keepalive 6y ago
Use ArchLinux, aptitude sux
ExcavateGrandMa 6y ago
iFACEPALM(s) & ass licking like an ice cream :Ð
hglee 6y ago
i915 GPU freeze on kernel 5.x solved?
- pmarin 6y ago
  do you have a bug report link about this?
  - hglee 6y ago
    I got micro freeze on ThinkPad x260 + kernel 5.4.x + firefox. You can find many reports like this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1872001 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1872001 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1843274 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1843274 https://groups.google.com/g/linux.debian.bugs.dist/search?q=i915+hang https://groups.google.com/g/linux.debian.bugs.dist/search?q=...
0xbadcafebee 6y ago
Anyone care to list the "things they wish were different" ? Trying to remember how to build a package some months back I ran into all the old headaches. Debian packaging is ancient, and the packages don't provide all the information and functionality other package management formats do. Trying to contribute a package (much less write one) is a pain. The structure of the files and how to build them seems over-complicated, and at the same time not very useful. The tools largely rely on a bunch of weird magic variables to fix common problems. Modern conventions could be added as tool shortcuts, like installing a package once in a container and then cleaning up all the crap you don't need before saving the layer. Navigating the website requires a high degree of tribal knowledge that no other distribution does (compare looking for packages across Debian releases to looking for packages across Alpine releases, as a neophyte). Why do source packages have to be renamed when nobody else does this? Is there a sort of "wish list" or "suggestions box" for Debian? This is something I wish I had at work, but not sure how to manage it.
- shasheene 6y ago
  The author of i3 Windows Manager has a series of interesting blog posts about his pain points with Debian project. [1] Well worth reading the blog series. He also has a research distribution named 'distri' that tries to fix certain aspects of those pain points. [2] [1] https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2019-03-10-debian-winding-down/ https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2019-03-10-debian-windin... [2] https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2019-08-17-introducing-distri/ https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2019-08-17-introducing-d...
  - jabl 6y ago
    > https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2019-03-10-debian-winding-down/ https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2019-03-10-debian-windin... This is really an excellent post. While I'm not a debian developer, some of those challenges enumerated affect end users directly as well. Like plenty of packages being single-maintainer fiefdoms, with wildly different quality of maintenance.
    - 6y ago
every 6y ago
A Debian terminal version in a container is what Chrome OS distributes. So far I am completely satisfied with it, but then my needs and demands are fairly minimal...
woile 6y ago
I'm a big Debian fan. Every time someone asks me for "computer" help with their windows machines, I tell them I can only solve their problem installing Debian (which is true, I haven't used Windows in a long time). So far my mom and dad have been using Debian for the last 4 years and I had to assist them almost never (we live in 2 different continents). Both of them work with the computer, and my dad is that person that is not good with computers. I've also installed Debian to at least 6 friends, who never had a complaint again. I also thought a friend how to code, she got a job as a developer after 9 months, she picked up Debian/linux super fast. I hope it keeps getting better and better and easier.
realdense 6y ago
Some of the highlights (from my point of view) that have been frozen, according to the packaging website: Linux kernel 5.10 gcc 10.2 libc 2.31 Perl 5.32 And some non-essential packages that look to being included in the upcoming release (I'm sure there's plenty of other exciting inclusions that I've missed): GNOME 3.38 KDE Plasma 5.20 Xfce 4.16 LXQt 0.16 MATE 1.24 Cinnamon 4.8 Apache httpd 2.4.46 Python 3.9 LibreOffice 7.0 QEMU 5.2
- gautamcgoel 6y ago
  Which website are you looking at? The release notes I saw said Bullseye would use the 4.19 kernel. I expect them to use a LTS kernel, so I'd be a bit surprised if they choose 5.10.
  - misev 6y ago
    5.10 is LTS
    - gautamcgoel 6y ago
      Woops, my bad!
mherrmann 6y ago
From what I read online, bullseye is only expected to be released in Q3 or Q4. Does anybody have experiences with using pre-release versions of Debian?

135 points by psxuaw 6y ago

Mathnerd314 6y ago

They're considering dropping i386, which is interesting. Does anyone know more about that?

HDMI_Cable 6y ago
I think it may be because the software packages for i386 are closed-source, but don't quote me on that.
- freeone3000 6y ago
  It's because in 2021, i386 processors are obsolescent. The last non-amd64 processor that ran x86 is the Pentium 4E from 2004, a 17-year-old machine. The packages will still be available as long as there's a maintainer, but it's not worth packaging a full debian release for such a small and shrinking portion of the userbase.
  - lmm 6y ago
    > The last non-amd64 processor that ran x86 is the Pentium 4E from 2004, a 17-year-old machine. Atom CPUs without x86_64 support were released up until 2013.
    - realdense 6y ago
      Debian Buster LTS is supported until 2024 and then probably ELTS until 2026. Also how many of these 32-bit Atom CPUs are actually in use anymore? It's a pretty edge case.
      - lmm 6y ago
        Debian is (or at least used to be) popular for old hardware - e.g. they supported m68k for longer than most distros. I had an i386 Atom netbook that I was using up until about a year ago, and if I hadn't moved internationally I'd probably still use it.
      - arpa 6y ago
        I run my home automation on atom. Considering that cost of asus eee pc is around $70 it still is a lucrative option of a complete system compared to raspberry.
  - walrus01 6y ago
    The Intel Core Duo (such as found in the 1st generation Intel macbook pro) from 2006) is not 64-bit capable.
  - flukus 6y ago
    But i386 will still run on 64 bit hardware. A place I was working recently was insisting on sticking to 32 bit linux while they migrated off Solaris, mostly for stupid reasons on code that wasn't too hard to port, but just because the hardware is no longer compatible doesn't mean the software is, especially for any proprietary software that will never be upgraded.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
cipherboy 6y ago
Fedora has considered and largely executed on the same: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Stop_Building_i686_Kernels https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/Stop_Building_i686_Ke... We still build packages for it, e.g., https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=1669667 https://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=166966... Some other related discussion: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/T5ZV5WCJ7U7BFQXC6RTNG3AIHXOORYOC/ https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fe...
shmerl 6y ago
I hope it means dropping the i386 distro, not dropping i386 multiarch which is still needed like for older 32-bit games and such. I don't see much value in i386 distro these days.
- megous 6y ago
  Debian keeps IBM Thinkpad T41 alive. :)
- pabs3 6y ago
  386 distro and i386 multiarch are pretty much one and the same for Debian, we don't have any "cut-down" ports without a kernel, bootloaders etc.
  - shmerl 6y ago
    Well, then they shouldn't be. It's less of an overhead to maintain packages that focus on multiarch use cases and drop ones that focus on making it an i386 hardware targeted distro.
lmm 6y ago
I'm guessing that fewer maintainers are running i386 to the point where i386 is not "tested by default". So they're asking porters to step up and take over testing/maintaining packages for i386 if they want the i386 releases to continue.
mappu 6y ago
Time64 is the death of i386 - the time_t structure needs to be expanded to 64-bit to handle dates beyond 2038, but that's an ABI break, and the primary reason anyone still runs 32-bit binaries is for closed-source games which won't come along for an ABI upgrade. You can either do the ABI break and lose most existing users when the main set of apps stop working, or have the main set of apps stop working anyway in 2038.
- ncmncm 6y ago
  You could switch it to unsigned 32-bit time_t, and most things would still work right up to 2106. With any luck, civilization will collapse by 2038 and it won't matter anyway. But, struggling back up from collapse on scavenged 32-bit microcontrollers powered by scavenged solar panels, we won't need the extra burden of post-y2038. Switch to unsigned 32-bit time_t for the sake of the (surviving) grandkids.
  - jabl 6y ago
    You keep saying this, but you're too late. The 64-bit signed time_t path was already chosen long ago and is being implemented.
    - ncmncm 6y ago
      Not on those.
- jabl 6y ago
  The kernel has already been fixed, but userspace (glibc) is AFAICS still in progress. Glibc is going to do it in a similar fashion to large file support (LFS), where if you define some particular macros you get the 64-bit time_t interfaces, otherwise you'll continue with the old 32-bit time_t. Similarly, existing binaries will continue to work, so in order to take advantage of 64-bit time_t you need to recompile (with those macros set, and fixing any resulting problems of course).
pmarin 6y ago
Can you provide a link about this?

gautamcgoel 6y ago

Debian is an amazing project. I love how it's so fundamental but doesn't call attention or hype to itself. It's used by millions but doesn't try to be sexy or glamorous. Even the website is minimal.

edoceo 6y ago
Also, it "just works". It's so reliable that I almost forget it's there. 10+ years in production and not once an OS/distro bang-up.
- mbreese 6y ago
  As an outsider, it's not the reliability of the software that is amazing to me. It's the governance and management of the project. The distro has managed to be amazingly consistent and stable for years. But the reason for this is how the project is run. It's hard to do that for so long with minimal drama and they deserve tons for kudos for that effort. Like some others, where CentOS was my go-to distro, I've started moving over to Debian as my distro of choice when I can. Thus far, I've been very happy with this choice.
  - edoceo 6y ago
    100%. That management makes it happen. I think we all (who can afford it) should send them a few bucks.
    - ce4 6y ago
      You're right. I just did that.
  - shmerl 6y ago
    There is some fun drama though, but overall it's indeed minimal. See: http://aaonline.fr/search.php?search&criteria[sequenceId-is]=6512_en_Debian%20init%20case http://aaonline.fr/search.php?search&criteria[sequenceId-is]... 1. http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=57684 http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=57684 2. http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=57899 http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=57899 3. http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=58428 http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=58428 4. http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=60363 http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=60363 5. http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=69970 http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=69970 6. http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=70639 http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=70639 7. http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=71040 http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=71040 8. http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=71116 http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=71116 9. http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=71715 http://aaonline.fr/player.php?trial_id=71715

gtirloni 6y ago

Following the recent CentOS fiasco, I'm advising friends to go with Debian. It's rock solid and can be depended upon.

alexdumitru 6y ago
I've switched from CentOS to Debian 7-8 years ago (Debian 7) and I just love it. I was trying a lot of distros, but I always came back to Debian and I stopped doing that for the past few years because Debian just works.
nerdponx 6y ago
Maybe for servers. But it still has plenty of rough edges as a desktop OS. Mint is a much better choice (IMO) for the desktop, that still is somewhat within the Debian ecosystem.
- jbirer 6y ago
  What are your rough edges? I have found Debian Unstable with latest Gnome to be way more stable and productive than I expected.
  - flukus 6y ago
    I'm not sure if they count as rough edges, but most common things I've come across tend to be security related and the limitations on a normal user. From (foggy) memory you can't sudo by default, and you also can't mount as a normal user. These things are probably perfectly reasonable choices to make for a secure server but annoying for a desktop. This may not count as desktop, but another annoying one is /usr/sbin and some other common directories being missing from the default PATH. Still, it's way less annoying than ubuntu's constant nagging about updates and trying to shove snap in your face.
  - vdfs 6y ago
    For me it was outdated browsers, i switched from Ubuntu just for Chromium and was shocked when i saw the version available, not just Chromium but also Firefox, they backport fixes but don't release new version to stable channel. Not really comfortable using Unstable/Testing channels which my have newer version. It's also hard to download first time you want to install, coming from Ubuntu there is just one x64 .iso and one big "download" button that auto select the right file. In Debian i had to google which file to download from CDs and DVDs version just for x64. And there is the install UI, it give you a 2006 vibe. This small things are easy to fix but still there for some reason, probably because they focus on core and more important stuff, but this are great things to have for new users.

jeppesen-io 6y ago

Not my distro of choice, but I very much respect their work and product

thatwasunusual 6y ago
What is your distro of choice?
- jeppesen-io 6y ago
  Big fan of NixOS - It's a hard start but rewarding
  - thatwasunusual 6y ago
    Why?

passthejoe 6y ago

I just installed yesterday. I tried an in-place upgrade from Buster, but that didn't work, so I did a new install. So far, so good. It's an interesting time to be running Bullseye because it includes GNOME 3.38, which is what you get in Fedora 33 and Ubuntu 20.10.

mappu 6y ago
I hit the gcc8 / libgcc-s1 migration problem when trying an in-place upgrade from Buster to Bullseye. I'm sure it will be resolved before the final release, but the issue for me was https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=961990 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=961990 and several workarounds were available, but running `apt full-upgrade libgcc1-` worked for me as per https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=964477#41 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=964477#41 .

magicalhippo 6y ago

I've been using Debian or Debian derived distros for quite a while, everything from straight up Debian on various servers, Armbian for my SBC's, to my secondary PC running Kubuntu and later KDE Neon. For me as a more casual Linux user, it's great as it essentially "just works" and I don't have to invest a great deal of time to fiddle with auxiliary things. However, if I could get one wish, it was to ditch the codenames. As someone who's not on the dev mailing list, I find it so confusing when people reference the Debian version just by codename and have to search just about every time to make sure I understand what's what. Regardless, a big thanks to the contributors!

pabs3 6y ago
If it helps, the list of Debian codenames is here: https://www.debian.org/releases/ https://www.debian.org/releases/
- cf100clunk 6y ago
  Also the corresponding Devuan (systemd-free Debian) release names, with "Bullseye" equating to "Chimera": https://www.devuan.org/os/releases https://www.devuan.org/os/releases
snowwindwaves 6y ago
The code names make issues with specific versions or eras easy to search
- shasheene 6y ago
  Ubuntu at least does it in alphabetical order of the first letter of the codename. Eg, the release after Ubuntu 20.04 Focal was Ubuntu 20.10 Groovy. This means that hearing the Ubuntu codename "Bionic" provides some information: it was 4 releases before Focal. But Debian codenames are arbitrarily based on characters from the movie Toy Story, so there's no relation to the Debian release. To fix this, I propose for future releases the Debian codename naming scheme be replaced with numbers written out in words. Eg. Debian 14 (fourteen) Debian 13 (thirteen) Debian 12 (twelve) Debian 11 (bullseye) Debian 10 (buster) Debian 9 (stretch) Debian 8 (jessie) This retains the ability to easily search for eg, "Debian Thirteen", while making it much easier to remember earlier codenames as time goes on. Also unlike Ubuntu's alphabetical naming scheme, the number approach doesn't have any overflow issues (which isn't as big of an issue anyway because Debian's provides new releases every 2 years instead of 6 monthly).

zackmorris 6y ago

Debian is my favorite distro for web dev, but, MIPS is also near and dear to my heart since I learned its hardware architecture in college. I view MIPS as the simplest possible instruction set that satisfies most of the modern scalability constraints (RISC, short pipeline, etc). It will likely be replaced by something like ARM which also incorporates instruction compression for basically free (since memory latency matters more than computing power more with each passing year). So I'm sad to see them remove MIPS support since I think next-gen 16+ core processors will probably use it. But, after reviving more failing projects than I can count, it's not a huge deal to use old commits to re-implement functionality. Most of that work is probably around stuff like endianness issues, atomic instructions, protected memory, caching, etc etc etc. If it helps them to set it aside for now, great, but I hope that MIPS support returns someday is all I'm saying.

hlieberman 6y ago
MIPS (Little Endian) and MIPS64 (LE) are still fully supported architectures!
- abrowne 6y ago
  Are you sure for mips? It says (emphasis added) > We have decided that the architectures that will be part of the bullseye release are: amd64, arm64, armel, armhf, i386, mips64el, mipsel, ppc64el and s390x (i.e. the same we had for buster minus mips).
  - SAI_Peregrinus 6y ago
    "mips64el, mipsel" Those are MIPS, but Little-Endian instead of Big-Endian.
    - abrowne 6y ago
      Thanks, got it now, I was confused by the differing notations. (I thought the parenthetical was a description, not a name.) Listening to my MIPS internet radio now FWIW (Pure brand).

keepalive 6y ago

Use ArchLinux, aptitude sux

ExcavateGrandMa 6y ago

iFACEPALM(s) & ass licking like an ice cream :Ð

hglee 6y ago

i915 GPU freeze on kernel 5.x solved?

pmarin 6y ago
do you have a bug report link about this?
- hglee 6y ago
  I got micro freeze on ThinkPad x260 + kernel 5.4.x + firefox. You can find many reports like this: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1872001 https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1872001 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1843274 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1843274 https://groups.google.com/g/linux.debian.bugs.dist/search?q=i915+hang https://groups.google.com/g/linux.debian.bugs.dist/search?q=...

0xbadcafebee 6y ago

Anyone care to list the "things they wish were different" ? Trying to remember how to build a package some months back I ran into all the old headaches. Debian packaging is ancient, and the packages don't provide all the information and functionality other package management formats do. Trying to contribute a package (much less write one) is a pain. The structure of the files and how to build them seems over-complicated, and at the same time not very useful. The tools largely rely on a bunch of weird magic variables to fix common problems. Modern conventions could be added as tool shortcuts, like installing a package once in a container and then cleaning up all the crap you don't need before saving the layer. Navigating the website requires a high degree of tribal knowledge that no other distribution does (compare looking for packages across Debian releases to looking for packages across Alpine releases, as a neophyte). Why do source packages have to be renamed when nobody else does this? Is there a sort of "wish list" or "suggestions box" for Debian? This is something I wish I had at work, but not sure how to manage it.

shasheene 6y ago
The author of i3 Windows Manager has a series of interesting blog posts about his pain points with Debian project. [1] Well worth reading the blog series. He also has a research distribution named 'distri' that tries to fix certain aspects of those pain points. [2] [1] https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2019-03-10-debian-winding-down/ https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2019-03-10-debian-windin... [2] https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2019-08-17-introducing-distri/ https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2019-08-17-introducing-d...
- jabl 6y ago
  > https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2019-03-10-debian-winding-down/ https://michael.stapelberg.ch/posts/2019-03-10-debian-windin... This is really an excellent post. While I'm not a debian developer, some of those challenges enumerated affect end users directly as well. Like plenty of packages being single-maintainer fiefdoms, with wildly different quality of maintenance.
  - 6y ago

every 6y ago

A Debian terminal version in a container is what Chrome OS distributes. So far I am completely satisfied with it, but then my needs and demands are fairly minimal...

woile 6y ago

I'm a big Debian fan. Every time someone asks me for "computer" help with their windows machines, I tell them I can only solve their problem installing Debian (which is true, I haven't used Windows in a long time). So far my mom and dad have been using Debian for the last 4 years and I had to assist them almost never (we live in 2 different continents). Both of them work with the computer, and my dad is that person that is not good with computers. I've also installed Debian to at least 6 friends, who never had a complaint again. I also thought a friend how to code, she got a job as a developer after 9 months, she picked up Debian/linux super fast. I hope it keeps getting better and better and easier.

realdense 6y ago

Some of the highlights (from my point of view) that have been frozen, according to the packaging website: Linux kernel 5.10 gcc 10.2 libc 2.31 Perl 5.32 And some non-essential packages that look to being included in the upcoming release (I'm sure there's plenty of other exciting inclusions that I've missed): GNOME 3.38 KDE Plasma 5.20 Xfce 4.16 LXQt 0.16 MATE 1.24 Cinnamon 4.8 Apache httpd 2.4.46 Python 3.9 LibreOffice 7.0 QEMU 5.2

gautamcgoel 6y ago
Which website are you looking at? The release notes I saw said Bullseye would use the 4.19 kernel. I expect them to use a LTS kernel, so I'd be a bit surprised if they choose 5.10.
- misev 6y ago
  5.10 is LTS
  - gautamcgoel 6y ago
    Woops, my bad!

mherrmann 6y ago

From what I read online, bullseye is only expected to be released in Q3 or Q4. Does anybody have experiences with using pre-release versions of Debian?