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> For that matter, should convicted murderers get their accounts suspended? I think not solely on the grounds that they’ve committed murder - but maybe if they

by ardy42 6y ago

> For that matter, should convicted murderers get their accounts suspended? I think not solely on the grounds that they’ve committed murder - but maybe if they are using their platform to cause further harm. On a related note, Facebook policy bans sex offenders from having accounts at all, regardless of what they do with them: https://www.facebook.com/help/210081519032737 https://www.facebook.com/help/210081519032737: > Convicted sex offenders aren't allowed to use Facebook. If you've seen an account that may belong to a convicted sex offender, please report it to us. Not sure about the other social media networks.

kristofferR 6y ago
That's pretty messed up. You as a 14 year old send a nude picture to your 15 year old boyfriend and suddenly you're banned from Facebook from life? Frankly the whole situation in the US is messed up, punishment should be limited to whatever the court decides.
- skissane 6y ago
  Even more messed up is the fact that some jurisdictions will criminally prosecute 14 year olds for sending nude pictures of themselves. (I do think 14 year olds should be discouraged from taking and sending nude pictures of themselves – it is the sort of thing they could easily come to regret in a few more years – but I don't think criminal prosecution is an ethical way of providing that discouragement.)
  - Fnoord 6y ago
    I don't know. Receiver could delete picture ASAP, and discourage behavior. If they keep, spread, or encourage they're complicit. Of course, there's a difference in severity between 1 nude of 1 person, or a myriad, or being an adult with a myriad. Sender getting prosecuted for spreading their own nude as minor might be weird, but also makes sense. Its not as if they'd be a registered sex offender as a minor. Put this way: what if it was an illegal firearm? We can't just turn a blind eye to youth breaking law, but we can't treat them like adults either. There's a solid middle ground: hold parents accountable till teenager, then both, and at age 16 the teenager but not with fully implemented adult law. Interestingly, that's approx how countries deal with it, or variants of that at least. TL;DR if properly nuanced, we can deal with issues like these, though we may disagree on these nuances, I'm quite sure we'll agree on the outliers.
    - skissane 6y ago
      > Sender getting prosecuted for spreading their own nude as minor might be weird, but also makes sense. I think the Australian state of Victoria gets it more or less right – section 51M of the Crimes Act 1958 [0] makes it explicitly legal for children to produce, possess or distribute images of themselves. Adults (and in some cases other children) can still be prosecuted if they encourage/entice/assist/etc the child to do it, but the child themselves commits no crime. > Its not as if they'd be a registered sex offender as a minor. A number of American states do in fact put minors on the sex offender registry. For example, [1] describes how a woman was registered as a sex offender in Michigan after being convicted of "criminal sexual conduct" as a 10 year old > Put this way: what if it was an illegal firearm? A fifteen year old who takes a picture of themselves naked, the primary risk of harm is to themselves, and the harm they are risking is psychosocial rather than physical. By contrast, a fifteen year old with an illegal firearm easily poses a risk of death or serious physical injury, not just to themselves, but also to others. Hence, criminally prosecuting the later is far easier to morally justify than criminally prosecuting the former. The situations aren't really comparable. > We can't just turn a blind eye to youth breaking law Well, like Victoria has done, the law can be changed so that they aren't breaking it. [0] http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/ca195882/s51m.html http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/ca1958... [1] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/03/14/when-kids-are-accused-of-sex-crimes https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/03/14/when-kids-are-...
    - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
      >Put this way: what if it was an illegal firearm? We can't just turn a blind eye to youth breaking law, but I don't think you realize just how common this is. There are very few people managing high school and college machine shops who haven't helped cover up an NFA violation. Even outside that making oil filter silencers for .22 rifles (or other cheap guns high schoolers have access to) is not at all uncommon. Eventually most grow out of it (i.e. they have a real life and the risk reward calculus changes). Likewise teenagers routinely get exposed to hard drugs and "the system" is the last thing that helps that. Damn near every adult has a bunch of "I'd be in prison if the caught me" stories from high school. So yeah, I think we should handle both with a stern talking too about federal prison and not much else. Most kids will mature out of this behavior and it's not worth risking screwing all of them to try and pre-emptively save the few that won't grow out of it.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > That's pretty messed up. You as a 14 year old send a nude picture to your 15 year old boyfriend and suddenly you're banned from Facebook from life? It's worth noting that is far from the typical case of "being a sex offender."
  - paul_f 6y ago
    No, more typical is a 22yo taking a pee against an alley wall behind the bar and being arrested for indecent exposure. Calling everyone a sex-offender just makes this a useless morass.
    - mc32 6y ago
      What about the homeless. That’s gotten out of hand. I understand they want to discourage streakers and guys who flip open their raincoats or whatever, but someone who looks for a dark corner to pee is no where near being a sex offender. That’s a travesty.

by ardy42 6y ago

kristofferR 6y ago

That's pretty messed up. You as a 14 year old send a nude picture to your 15 year old boyfriend and suddenly you're banned from Facebook from life? Frankly the whole situation in the US is messed up, punishment should be limited to whatever the court decides.

skissane 6y ago
Even more messed up is the fact that some jurisdictions will criminally prosecute 14 year olds for sending nude pictures of themselves. (I do think 14 year olds should be discouraged from taking and sending nude pictures of themselves – it is the sort of thing they could easily come to regret in a few more years – but I don't think criminal prosecution is an ethical way of providing that discouragement.)
- Fnoord 6y ago
  I don't know. Receiver could delete picture ASAP, and discourage behavior. If they keep, spread, or encourage they're complicit. Of course, there's a difference in severity between 1 nude of 1 person, or a myriad, or being an adult with a myriad. Sender getting prosecuted for spreading their own nude as minor might be weird, but also makes sense. Its not as if they'd be a registered sex offender as a minor. Put this way: what if it was an illegal firearm? We can't just turn a blind eye to youth breaking law, but we can't treat them like adults either. There's a solid middle ground: hold parents accountable till teenager, then both, and at age 16 the teenager but not with fully implemented adult law. Interestingly, that's approx how countries deal with it, or variants of that at least. TL;DR if properly nuanced, we can deal with issues like these, though we may disagree on these nuances, I'm quite sure we'll agree on the outliers.
  - skissane 6y ago
    > Sender getting prosecuted for spreading their own nude as minor might be weird, but also makes sense. I think the Australian state of Victoria gets it more or less right – section 51M of the Crimes Act 1958 [0] makes it explicitly legal for children to produce, possess or distribute images of themselves. Adults (and in some cases other children) can still be prosecuted if they encourage/entice/assist/etc the child to do it, but the child themselves commits no crime. > Its not as if they'd be a registered sex offender as a minor. A number of American states do in fact put minors on the sex offender registry. For example, [1] describes how a woman was registered as a sex offender in Michigan after being convicted of "criminal sexual conduct" as a 10 year old > Put this way: what if it was an illegal firearm? A fifteen year old who takes a picture of themselves naked, the primary risk of harm is to themselves, and the harm they are risking is psychosocial rather than physical. By contrast, a fifteen year old with an illegal firearm easily poses a risk of death or serious physical injury, not just to themselves, but also to others. Hence, criminally prosecuting the later is far easier to morally justify than criminally prosecuting the former. The situations aren't really comparable. > We can't just turn a blind eye to youth breaking law Well, like Victoria has done, the law can be changed so that they aren't breaking it. [0] http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/ca195882/s51m.html http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/ca1958... [1] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/03/14/when-kids-are-accused-of-sex-crimes https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/03/14/when-kids-are-...
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    >Put this way: what if it was an illegal firearm? We can't just turn a blind eye to youth breaking law, but I don't think you realize just how common this is. There are very few people managing high school and college machine shops who haven't helped cover up an NFA violation. Even outside that making oil filter silencers for .22 rifles (or other cheap guns high schoolers have access to) is not at all uncommon. Eventually most grow out of it (i.e. they have a real life and the risk reward calculus changes). Likewise teenagers routinely get exposed to hard drugs and "the system" is the last thing that helps that. Damn near every adult has a bunch of "I'd be in prison if the caught me" stories from high school. So yeah, I think we should handle both with a stern talking too about federal prison and not much else. Most kids will mature out of this behavior and it's not worth risking screwing all of them to try and pre-emptively save the few that won't grow out of it.
ardy42 6y ago
> That's pretty messed up. You as a 14 year old send a nude picture to your 15 year old boyfriend and suddenly you're banned from Facebook from life? It's worth noting that is far from the typical case of "being a sex offender."
- paul_f 6y ago
  No, more typical is a 22yo taking a pee against an alley wall behind the bar and being arrested for indecent exposure. Calling everyone a sex-offender just makes this a useless morass.
  - mc32 6y ago
    What about the homeless. That’s gotten out of hand. I understand they want to discourage streakers and guys who flip open their raincoats or whatever, but someone who looks for a dark corner to pee is no where near being a sex offender. That’s a travesty.