5 ms·

Sometimes you just gotta wonder about some people. The most pro status-quo candidate in a generation is planning to take us to the dark ages?

adnzzzzZ 6y ago
If you believe the status-quo is taking you to the dark ages then it's not very crazy. And for the more rural portion of America that seems to be the case.
- redisman 6y ago
  Fair but they don’t seem to actually want pragmatic/realpolitik solutions. Did Trump deliver something that revitalized these communities? Anything? Was he promising anything for 2020? Seems like he just made them feel “represented” in a completely shallow and meaningless way. Meanwhile in your random town in WV things keep sliding towards extinction
coldtea 6y ago
Well, "business as usual" has led working class (and middle class) america to wage stagnation, increasingly worse jobs, de-industrialization, decline of small towns, meth/heroin rise, and such, plus wars mainly using poor rural people as fodder, and other such niceties. Plus coastal elites (including non-elites who still identify as hollier-than the plebs in the fly-over country) sneering at them. The glorious march of the stock market, or the glorious technological future, only meant being worse of (job prospects, housing costs, healthcare costs, education costs, etc.) for them. Even openly calling out a 40% who voted another candidate "deplorables". So from this European's standapoint, it makes sense for these people to consider more of the status quo to mean "return to the dark ages".
- x1ph0z 6y ago
  The best part, some degree of socialism would help these people... yet they're opposed to it because it would help `other` people.
- ordinaryradical 6y ago
  Kind of a good take, but these points actually makes their attitude even stranger: they are not afraid of neoliberalism, which is the defacto economic position of both the left and the right, but of "communism." Biden is a "communist," or "godless," or "anti-American." What do these statements actually mean? You can argue that their feelings of economic greivance make sense--but their voting habits are a rejection of policies like universal healthcare (which would benefit the vast majority of them) because "socialism." They eagerly voted in those who planned to dismantle the ACA and loudly said they would do so in 2016 ("repeal and replace"), then when the Republicans attempted to leave them high and dry, everyone, including Trump, panicked and backed out. What's going on here? This attempt to make them sound reasonable in their fear glosses over the obvious contradictions in how they vote and where they think their problems lie. What will four more years of Republican tax cuts coupled with absurd austerity politics get them? Biden is worse than this because...?
  - rayiner 6y ago
    > Biden is a "communist," or "godless," or "anti-American." What do these statements actually mean? They didn't attack Biden as being those things. They attacked Biden for being old, not entirely there, and weak barrier against the radical elements of the Democratic Party. For example Karen Bass, who was on Biden's VP shortlist, had a bunch of communist ties: https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/karen-bass-vice-president-kamala-harris/ https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/karen-bass-vice-presiden... > First reported were her ill-chosen words upon the death of Fidel Castro in 2016, she opined, that “the passing of the Comandante en Jefe is a great loss to the people of Cuba.” Ouch! But politically survivable. > Far more damaging was news that that Bass first visited the island while, in college, at age 19, in 1973 with the Venceremos Brigade, a group popular with leftwing student radicals and social progressives that organized and ferried Americans to Cuba to cut sugar cane and build homes—in defiance of the U.S. Embargo and policy. She would take eight trips with the Brigade during the 1970s alone As to "anti-American" many on the left embraced taking the name of founding fathers off of school buildings. My magnet high school in Virginia is named after Thomas Jefferson and there has been an effort to rename it. Even Abraham Lincoln has been indicted (if not yet convicted): https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/12/20/fact-check-san-franciscos-abraham-lincoln-hs-name-change-isnt-final/3940580001 https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/12/20/fac.... Taking Thomas Jefferson's name off a school building is a declaration of war to conservatives. They believe that civilization is a product of history and tradition and practice, not abstract principles. The idea you can "keep the good things Jefferson believed" while ditching the historical figure himself is something that makes no sense to them. It'd be like taking Jesus out of the Bible. > You can argue that their feelings of economic greivance make sense--but their voting habits are a rejection of policies like universal healthcare (which would benefit the vast majority of them) because "socialism." Trump voters already have healthcare. They're disproportionately likely to be folks who bear greater burdens under the ACA--like small business owners. Or the majority of people who are happy with their private health insurance. More generally, the Republican Party is a coalition of social conservatives (some of whom are quite economically liberal) and economic conservatives. Voting Democrat wouldn't make any sense for them, especially because, as you observe, the Democratic Party is staunchly neo-liberal as well. I recall listening to interviews with Trump voters around Scranton (where Joe Biden was born). Folks were talking about how they were multi-generational Democratic voters, but were disillusioned by Democrats' support for NAFTA, etc. If Democrats chose to prioritize social liberalism and economic neo-liberalism it makes totally sense for those folks to vote Republican.
- madamelic 6y ago
  None of this is Democrats or liberal's fault. Their party has been yelling about getting off fossil fuels for the last 20 years. Obama encouraged organizations that were re-training coal miners and others in dead industries to join the digital workforce. It's the alt-right who have been promising to go back to 'normal' and that coal is the future. The economics aren't there, fossil fuels is a dying industry. Even if we aren't elimiating fossil fuels tomorrow, we don't need 2,000 men underground digging, we have machines, automation and different mining methods now. Any one who perpetuates this idea that we can get through this without radical change is fooling themselves. Is Biden going to lead us into the future? Unlikely, but he is not going to perpetuate a lie. Coal is not coming back, drivers are on the way out, the economy is going to be turned upsides down in the next decade and we need to admit that fact.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    Nobody brought up coal this election cycle. The complaint about Biden was his perceived promise to ban fracking.
    - yazaddaruvala 6y ago
      Given Breitbart's reputation, the publication date, and the title: This is at-least one source of coal (and other fossil fuels) being politicized this election cycle. https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/09/29/joe-biden-no-coal-oil-plants-america/ https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/09/29/joe-biden-no-c...
      - rayiner 6y ago
        Okay, that source also mentions coal, but oil is the part of that statement that really set people off. Since Obama took office to just before Covid, US oil production nearly tripled. The decline of coal is economically priced in, but shutting down domestic oil and gas production anytime soon would take a shotgun to the economy.
        yazaddaruvala 6y ago

adnzzzzZ 6y ago

If you believe the status-quo is taking you to the dark ages then it's not very crazy. And for the more rural portion of America that seems to be the case.

redisman 6y ago
Fair but they don’t seem to actually want pragmatic/realpolitik solutions. Did Trump deliver something that revitalized these communities? Anything? Was he promising anything for 2020? Seems like he just made them feel “represented” in a completely shallow and meaningless way. Meanwhile in your random town in WV things keep sliding towards extinction

coldtea 6y ago

Well, "business as usual" has led working class (and middle class) america to wage stagnation, increasingly worse jobs, de-industrialization, decline of small towns, meth/heroin rise, and such, plus wars mainly using poor rural people as fodder, and other such niceties. Plus coastal elites (including non-elites who still identify as hollier-than the plebs in the fly-over country) sneering at them. The glorious march of the stock market, or the glorious technological future, only meant being worse of (job prospects, housing costs, healthcare costs, education costs, etc.) for them. Even openly calling out a 40% who voted another candidate "deplorables". So from this European's standapoint, it makes sense for these people to consider more of the status quo to mean "return to the dark ages".

x1ph0z 6y ago
The best part, some degree of socialism would help these people... yet they're opposed to it because it would help `other` people.
ordinaryradical 6y ago
Kind of a good take, but these points actually makes their attitude even stranger: they are not afraid of neoliberalism, which is the defacto economic position of both the left and the right, but of "communism." Biden is a "communist," or "godless," or "anti-American." What do these statements actually mean? You can argue that their feelings of economic greivance make sense--but their voting habits are a rejection of policies like universal healthcare (which would benefit the vast majority of them) because "socialism." They eagerly voted in those who planned to dismantle the ACA and loudly said they would do so in 2016 ("repeal and replace"), then when the Republicans attempted to leave them high and dry, everyone, including Trump, panicked and backed out. What's going on here? This attempt to make them sound reasonable in their fear glosses over the obvious contradictions in how they vote and where they think their problems lie. What will four more years of Republican tax cuts coupled with absurd austerity politics get them? Biden is worse than this because...?
- rayiner 6y ago
  > Biden is a "communist," or "godless," or "anti-American." What do these statements actually mean? They didn't attack Biden as being those things. They attacked Biden for being old, not entirely there, and weak barrier against the radical elements of the Democratic Party. For example Karen Bass, who was on Biden's VP shortlist, had a bunch of communist ties: https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/karen-bass-vice-president-kamala-harris/ https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/karen-bass-vice-presiden... > First reported were her ill-chosen words upon the death of Fidel Castro in 2016, she opined, that “the passing of the Comandante en Jefe is a great loss to the people of Cuba.” Ouch! But politically survivable. > Far more damaging was news that that Bass first visited the island while, in college, at age 19, in 1973 with the Venceremos Brigade, a group popular with leftwing student radicals and social progressives that organized and ferried Americans to Cuba to cut sugar cane and build homes—in defiance of the U.S. Embargo and policy. She would take eight trips with the Brigade during the 1970s alone As to "anti-American" many on the left embraced taking the name of founding fathers off of school buildings. My magnet high school in Virginia is named after Thomas Jefferson and there has been an effort to rename it. Even Abraham Lincoln has been indicted (if not yet convicted): https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/12/20/fact-check-san-franciscos-abraham-lincoln-hs-name-change-isnt-final/3940580001 https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/12/20/fac.... Taking Thomas Jefferson's name off a school building is a declaration of war to conservatives. They believe that civilization is a product of history and tradition and practice, not abstract principles. The idea you can "keep the good things Jefferson believed" while ditching the historical figure himself is something that makes no sense to them. It'd be like taking Jesus out of the Bible. > You can argue that their feelings of economic greivance make sense--but their voting habits are a rejection of policies like universal healthcare (which would benefit the vast majority of them) because "socialism." Trump voters already have healthcare. They're disproportionately likely to be folks who bear greater burdens under the ACA--like small business owners. Or the majority of people who are happy with their private health insurance. More generally, the Republican Party is a coalition of social conservatives (some of whom are quite economically liberal) and economic conservatives. Voting Democrat wouldn't make any sense for them, especially because, as you observe, the Democratic Party is staunchly neo-liberal as well. I recall listening to interviews with Trump voters around Scranton (where Joe Biden was born). Folks were talking about how they were multi-generational Democratic voters, but were disillusioned by Democrats' support for NAFTA, etc. If Democrats chose to prioritize social liberalism and economic neo-liberalism it makes totally sense for those folks to vote Republican.
madamelic 6y ago
None of this is Democrats or liberal's fault. Their party has been yelling about getting off fossil fuels for the last 20 years. Obama encouraged organizations that were re-training coal miners and others in dead industries to join the digital workforce. It's the alt-right who have been promising to go back to 'normal' and that coal is the future. The economics aren't there, fossil fuels is a dying industry. Even if we aren't elimiating fossil fuels tomorrow, we don't need 2,000 men underground digging, we have machines, automation and different mining methods now. Any one who perpetuates this idea that we can get through this without radical change is fooling themselves. Is Biden going to lead us into the future? Unlikely, but he is not going to perpetuate a lie. Coal is not coming back, drivers are on the way out, the economy is going to be turned upsides down in the next decade and we need to admit that fact.
- rayiner 6y ago
  Nobody brought up coal this election cycle. The complaint about Biden was his perceived promise to ban fracking.
  - yazaddaruvala 6y ago
    Given Breitbart's reputation, the publication date, and the title: This is at-least one source of coal (and other fossil fuels) being politicized this election cycle. https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/09/29/joe-biden-no-coal-oil-plants-america/ https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2020/09/29/joe-biden-no-c...
    - rayiner 6y ago
      Okay, that source also mentions coal, but oil is the part of that statement that really set people off. Since Obama took office to just before Covid, US oil production nearly tripled. The decline of coal is economically priced in, but shutting down domestic oil and gas production anytime soon would take a shotgun to the economy.
      - yazaddaruvala 6y ago