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I want to like Alpine because it's so light, but realistically you can only ever use it in Docker / VMs or for very specific locked-down needs. The musl libc m

I want to like Alpine because it's so light, but realistically you can only ever use it in Docker / VMs or for very specific locked-down needs. The musl libc makes it a bad choice for general purpose desktop use (look at the number of hacks required to get some version of VSCode running on it for example).

saagarjha 6y ago
On the contrary, we ship Alpine with iSH because it’s so small by default. This keeps our app size down to just a few MB-which is not bad, IMO, for something that gives you most of POSIX on your iPhone :)
jlelse 6y ago
You can install Alpine on the host and then use Alpine images in Docker on Alpine. :D (that's how I do it) But yeah I would like to use it on the desktop as well..
nenolod 6y ago
The gcompat project, which provides a wine-like compatibility layer for glibc applications, is pretty close to having vscode working out of the box.
- vinniec 6y ago
  After this message from you, I proceeded to update alpine to have a more recent version of gcompat available and to try to start some programs compiled with glibc. I haven't tried many things, but all the tests failed except with "powder" ( http://www.zincland.com/powder/release/powder118_linux.tar.gz http://www.zincland.com/powder/release/powder118_linux.tar.g... ) which actually starts after installing the gcompat package. The thing is very interesting because actually I would like to try to use vscode on alpine, I wanted to try the "appimage" version (https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/releases/download/1.52.1/VSCodium-1.52.1-1608165473 https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/releases/download/1.52..... glibc2.16-x86_64.AppImage) but I could not start any appimage in my tests. If you have more information, I'm curious, even if I'm quite noob.
piaste 6y ago
I think it totally makes sense that a minimal distro optimized for containers should be a different project from a minimal distro optimized for desktop use. Off the top of my head, Tiny Core Linux uses glibc and has desktop users as a primary goal.
turminal 6y ago
VScode as a piece of software is profoundly incompatible with the philosophy of Alpine so this isn't too surprising.
fmajid 6y ago
I run Alpine on bare metal as my home server, very happy with it. I do run Ubuntu on my laptop/desktop.
akvadrako 6y ago
musl is also sometimes much slower than glib, for example with some scripting languages. Even when your workload is compatible it's usually a good idea to use another distro in your docker container. When performance doesn't matter I think it's great though.
- nenolod 6y ago
  We have started to extend musl with optimized routines like glibc does. But really, the performance difference is usually minimal.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    Is this something that you are planning to upstream? Or will it be local to Alpine?
    - nenolod 6y ago
      That activity is being driven in musl directly. 1.2 has introduced optimizations for arm, aarch64, x86 and x86_64. there's more to optimize, but some are already there.
ddevault 6y ago
I use Alpine as my daily driver on desktops, and in production on bare metal servers (and in production VMs). musl libc is much easier to debug and understand, which pays off in spades regardless of compatibility with broken (i.e. non-portable) programs. The system is exceptionally stable and reliable, which I care about very much. It's also simple, in that it does everything I ask it to, and nothing I don't ask it to. I can fit the entire system in my head. I use Vim as my editor, and yes, programmers who value bloated, un-Unixy tools like VSCode will not find the system accomodating.
arghwhat 6y ago
Alpine works quite well as a desktop OS. Using pre-built proprietary applications is the only thing that requires a little trickery. I imagine vscode could be built and packaged just fine if someone wanted to.
alpaca128 6y ago
For me the best alternative is Void Linux. It is still very lightweight and without unnecessary clutter, but more pleasant to use on a desktop.
stock_toaster 6y ago
Alpine is great as a docker _host_ too.

saagarjha 6y ago

On the contrary, we ship Alpine with iSH because it’s so small by default. This keeps our app size down to just a few MB-which is not bad, IMO, for something that gives you most of POSIX on your iPhone :)

jlelse 6y ago

You can install Alpine on the host and then use Alpine images in Docker on Alpine. :D (that's how I do it) But yeah I would like to use it on the desktop as well..

nenolod 6y ago

The gcompat project, which provides a wine-like compatibility layer for glibc applications, is pretty close to having vscode working out of the box.

vinniec 6y ago
After this message from you, I proceeded to update alpine to have a more recent version of gcompat available and to try to start some programs compiled with glibc. I haven't tried many things, but all the tests failed except with "powder" ( http://www.zincland.com/powder/release/powder118_linux.tar.gz http://www.zincland.com/powder/release/powder118_linux.tar.g... ) which actually starts after installing the gcompat package. The thing is very interesting because actually I would like to try to use vscode on alpine, I wanted to try the "appimage" version (https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/releases/download/1.52.1/VSCodium-1.52.1-1608165473 https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/releases/download/1.52..... glibc2.16-x86_64.AppImage) but I could not start any appimage in my tests. If you have more information, I'm curious, even if I'm quite noob.

piaste 6y ago

I think it totally makes sense that a minimal distro optimized for containers should be a different project from a minimal distro optimized for desktop use. Off the top of my head, Tiny Core Linux uses glibc and has desktop users as a primary goal.

turminal 6y ago

VScode as a piece of software is profoundly incompatible with the philosophy of Alpine so this isn't too surprising.

fmajid 6y ago

I run Alpine on bare metal as my home server, very happy with it. I do run Ubuntu on my laptop/desktop.

akvadrako 6y ago

musl is also sometimes much slower than glib, for example with some scripting languages. Even when your workload is compatible it's usually a good idea to use another distro in your docker container. When performance doesn't matter I think it's great though.

nenolod 6y ago
We have started to extend musl with optimized routines like glibc does. But really, the performance difference is usually minimal.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Is this something that you are planning to upstream? Or will it be local to Alpine?
  - nenolod 6y ago
    That activity is being driven in musl directly. 1.2 has introduced optimizations for arm, aarch64, x86 and x86_64. there's more to optimize, but some are already there.

ddevault 6y ago

I use Alpine as my daily driver on desktops, and in production on bare metal servers (and in production VMs). musl libc is much easier to debug and understand, which pays off in spades regardless of compatibility with broken (i.e. non-portable) programs. The system is exceptionally stable and reliable, which I care about very much. It's also simple, in that it does everything I ask it to, and nothing I don't ask it to. I can fit the entire system in my head. I use Vim as my editor, and yes, programmers who value bloated, un-Unixy tools like VSCode will not find the system accomodating.

arghwhat 6y ago

Alpine works quite well as a desktop OS. Using pre-built proprietary applications is the only thing that requires a little trickery. I imagine vscode could be built and packaged just fine if someone wanted to.

alpaca128 6y ago

For me the best alternative is Void Linux. It is still very lightweight and without unnecessary clutter, but more pleasant to use on a desktop.

stock_toaster 6y ago

Alpine is great as a docker _host_ too.