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note that it's not that they're in the military, it's that they're too close and invested. distance fosters dispassion, so the leader not being part of the mili

note that it's not that they're in the military, it's that they're too close and invested. distance fosters dispassion, so the leader not being part of the military specifically, rather than simply being a civilian, is what makes decisions more rational (also, as others have noted, that dispassion can also foster war because the civilian leader has no real skin in the game).

SllX 6y ago
Yes, but when the leader is a politician, he has skin in a different game: getting re-elected. It doesn’t stop them from going to war, but it makes it less likely.
- clairity 6y ago
  that's a different game from putting your life at risk.
  - SllX 6y ago
    I agree. It is however a strong motivation that has an effect on the choices of the civilian leadership of the military.
- ygjb 6y ago
  That is straight up at odds with American (or Canadian, or for the most part, UK) history. In the United States Trump is the first "war-time" president to blow re-election during an active war, and his term was punctuated by attempts at troop draw down, coupled with inflammatory rhetoric towards Iran when he was low in polls. Engaging in something that can be spun as a just war is a viable re-election tactic.
  - scarmig 6y ago
    I'm not sure I'd count Trump as a wartime President, though perhaps that's a result of appallingly low standards for what counts as peace.
    - ygjb 6y ago
      Yeah, it's sketchy, which is why I put it in quotes. The reason he is not really a war-time president is the only war he is even close to actually starting is a civil war :P
  - hobby-coder-guy 6y ago
    What active war? Covid? How could you possibly use that as evidence.
  - SllX 6y ago
    The important part here is that they are forced to actually take the steps of justifying the war to the public and consulting the legislature. If you have the public’s support for the war, then a war isn’t going to hurt your election chances.
dctoedt 6y ago
> note that it's not that they're in the military, it's that they're too close and invested My strong impression has been that the Japanese military in the 1930s was a catastrophically-extreme illustration of Dunning-Kruger syndrome when it came to understanding international affairs and in particular understanding the psychology and industrial capacity of the United States. (Admiral Yamamoto was a noteworthy exception: Having spent considerable time in the U.S, he strongly favored friendly relations with the U.S. and opposed going to war. When he was overruled by the militarists in the Army, he planned Pearl Harbor and Midway as a roll of the dice for what he judged to be Japan's only hope of success, namely by striking hard blows and trying for a quick negotiated peace. It didn't work out that way.)

SllX 6y ago

Yes, but when the leader is a politician, he has skin in a different game: getting re-elected. It doesn’t stop them from going to war, but it makes it less likely.

clairity 6y ago
that's a different game from putting your life at risk.
- SllX 6y ago
  I agree. It is however a strong motivation that has an effect on the choices of the civilian leadership of the military.
ygjb 6y ago
That is straight up at odds with American (or Canadian, or for the most part, UK) history. In the United States Trump is the first "war-time" president to blow re-election during an active war, and his term was punctuated by attempts at troop draw down, coupled with inflammatory rhetoric towards Iran when he was low in polls. Engaging in something that can be spun as a just war is a viable re-election tactic.
- scarmig 6y ago
  I'm not sure I'd count Trump as a wartime President, though perhaps that's a result of appallingly low standards for what counts as peace.
  - ygjb 6y ago
    Yeah, it's sketchy, which is why I put it in quotes. The reason he is not really a war-time president is the only war he is even close to actually starting is a civil war :P
- hobby-coder-guy 6y ago
  What active war? Covid? How could you possibly use that as evidence.
- SllX 6y ago
  The important part here is that they are forced to actually take the steps of justifying the war to the public and consulting the legislature. If you have the public’s support for the war, then a war isn’t going to hurt your election chances.

dctoedt 6y ago

> note that it's not that they're in the military, it's that they're too close and invested My strong impression has been that the Japanese military in the 1930s was a catastrophically-extreme illustration of Dunning-Kruger syndrome when it came to understanding international affairs and in particular understanding the psychology and industrial capacity of the United States. (Admiral Yamamoto was a noteworthy exception: Having spent considerable time in the U.S, he strongly favored friendly relations with the U.S. and opposed going to war. When he was overruled by the militarists in the Army, he planned Pearl Harbor and Midway as a roll of the dice for what he judged to be Japan's only hope of success, namely by striking hard blows and trying for a quick negotiated peace. It didn't work out that way.)