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How should we handle the majority of customers that aren't technically savvy and are just looking to upload pictures of granny? Or to further your shoe store i

How should we handle the majority of customers that aren't technically savvy and are just looking to upload pictures of granny? Or to further your shoe store idea. The majority of people know how to tie their shoes. Most shoe stores usually don't keep a lot of stock of shoes larger than a US size 12 men's shoe. My foot happens to be larger. I have a different use case. So I often have to go through a different workflow (e.g. ordering online, having the store custom order my shoes, etc.). If you want full data security, you need additional technical knowledge and a different workflow. iCloud isn't for you.

34679 6y ago
Make encryption optional, and explicitly state the associated risk of a lost key.
- vulcan01 6y ago
  This is actually a good idea. Apple does this on macOS with File Vault: "WARNING: You will need your login password or a recovery key to access your data. ... If you forget both your password and recovery key, the data will be lost." They could put a clear warning on the iCloud screen as well. However, there is a large market for the iPhone in non-tech savvy people, especially old people, who may not understand fully what this decision means.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    As I recall, that's how Mozy did it for online backups way back when. (I think it was encrypted in any case but they handled the key management by default.) They let you handle your own key if you wanted to but gave a stern warning if you elected to do that.
  - Kalium 6y ago
    If memory serves, Apple did precisely this with FileVault for a very long time. Google did the same thing with encryption on phones. It was all quite thoroughly optional and all the warnings were thoroughly clear. People can, will, do, and did ignore any and all warning messages and then look to support to help them. It does not seem to matter how large, scary, or clear the warnings are. They will be ignored. So if you're Google or Apple and want to ensure that people's identity documents or tax records or business documents aren't stolen when the laptop or phone is, you make encryption the default. It helps that these devices are easier to sell to businesses. I'm thankful for these choices. In my professional capacity as an information security practitioner and my personal capacity as a privacy advocate, I find the idea at hand distasteful. Improved security should be available to everyone, not just those with a deep grasp of how to manage cryptographic keys. Gaining any measure of data security should not be reserved solely for us in the technical elite. There might, perhaps, be a slightly different discussion to be had about making it more common for tools to enable advanced users to manage their own keys. But this should never come at the expense of the common user. We have a profound professional responsibility to be better than that.
  - curryst 6y ago
    > Apple does this on macOS with File Vault: "WARNING: You will need your login password or a recovery key to access your data. ... If you forget both your password and recovery key, the data will be lost." Many people assume that that when it says "can't", it actually means "won't", and that they'll be able to beg or browbeat support into helping them. I can also already see the argument: "but that's not my data, it's in My Documents, it's a document so it shouldn't be encrypted!" Communicating these things to users is hard because when it comes to computers, the lexicon is often personal. What one user calls My Documents might refer to the My Documents collection in Windows, and another one might mean a random folder they created that they put documents in. It's basically impossible to get everyone on the same lexicon, although it's getting better as young kids grow up with computers.
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Silhouette 6y ago
If you want full data security, you need additional technical knowledge and a different workflow. iCloud isn't for you. As someone who very much doesn't use iCloud for exactly this reason, I'd have a lot more sympathy with that argument if Apple didn't push everyone towards iCloud and the accompanying insecurity while simultaneously making it much more difficult than it needs to be to move your data between, onto and off Apple devices in other, more secure ways.
chillacy 6y ago
iOS has an option to wipe itself after 10 incorrect passcode entries. There are lots of warnings, I think most people get the idea that this is opt-in.
- IndySun 6y ago
  I have this on. But what happens to your stuff in the iCloud cloud after it activates? Probably sits there forever.
bronco21016 6y ago
> iCloud isn’t for you. I’ve come to this conclusion. So what are my options since Apple keeps such tight control on everything? Plug in nightly to iTunes or libimobiledevice? Stand up an iTunes server for LAN backups requiring Windows or macOS? What about the 30-40% of nights I’m on the road? I’m all for ditching iCloud for backups but Apple has made it really inconvenient to do automated backups with anything but iCloud. Libimobiledevice is slowly working towards LAN backups so we’re getting there but then I’m still in need of mDNS reflection to make it happen over WAN. I’ve made efforts into tying as much of my data to self-hosted solutions as possible but full device backup on your own hardware is still a gaping hole in the iOS ecosystem.
- themeiguoren 6y ago
  I backup my iPhone to my hard drive monthly. I really don’t think there’s a pressing need to have a live backup on your phone. On average, if I lose data, it’s only 15 days worth. If you’re this paranoid about security then back up every week.

34679 6y ago

Make encryption optional, and explicitly state the associated risk of a lost key.

vulcan01 6y ago
This is actually a good idea. Apple does this on macOS with File Vault: "WARNING: You will need your login password or a recovery key to access your data. ... If you forget both your password and recovery key, the data will be lost." They could put a clear warning on the iCloud screen as well. However, there is a large market for the iPhone in non-tech savvy people, especially old people, who may not understand fully what this decision means.
- ghaff 6y ago
  As I recall, that's how Mozy did it for online backups way back when. (I think it was encrypted in any case but they handled the key management by default.) They let you handle your own key if you wanted to but gave a stern warning if you elected to do that.
- Kalium 6y ago
  If memory serves, Apple did precisely this with FileVault for a very long time. Google did the same thing with encryption on phones. It was all quite thoroughly optional and all the warnings were thoroughly clear. People can, will, do, and did ignore any and all warning messages and then look to support to help them. It does not seem to matter how large, scary, or clear the warnings are. They will be ignored. So if you're Google or Apple and want to ensure that people's identity documents or tax records or business documents aren't stolen when the laptop or phone is, you make encryption the default. It helps that these devices are easier to sell to businesses. I'm thankful for these choices. In my professional capacity as an information security practitioner and my personal capacity as a privacy advocate, I find the idea at hand distasteful. Improved security should be available to everyone, not just those with a deep grasp of how to manage cryptographic keys. Gaining any measure of data security should not be reserved solely for us in the technical elite. There might, perhaps, be a slightly different discussion to be had about making it more common for tools to enable advanced users to manage their own keys. But this should never come at the expense of the common user. We have a profound professional responsibility to be better than that.
- curryst 6y ago
  > Apple does this on macOS with File Vault: "WARNING: You will need your login password or a recovery key to access your data. ... If you forget both your password and recovery key, the data will be lost." Many people assume that that when it says "can't", it actually means "won't", and that they'll be able to beg or browbeat support into helping them. I can also already see the argument: "but that's not my data, it's in My Documents, it's a document so it shouldn't be encrypted!" Communicating these things to users is hard because when it comes to computers, the lexicon is often personal. What one user calls My Documents might refer to the My Documents collection in Windows, and another one might mean a random folder they created that they put documents in. It's basically impossible to get everyone on the same lexicon, although it's getting better as young kids grow up with computers.
deleted 6y ago
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deleted 6y ago
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Silhouette 6y ago

If you want full data security, you need additional technical knowledge and a different workflow. iCloud isn't for you. As someone who very much doesn't use iCloud for exactly this reason, I'd have a lot more sympathy with that argument if Apple didn't push everyone towards iCloud and the accompanying insecurity while simultaneously making it much more difficult than it needs to be to move your data between, onto and off Apple devices in other, more secure ways.

chillacy 6y ago

iOS has an option to wipe itself after 10 incorrect passcode entries. There are lots of warnings, I think most people get the idea that this is opt-in.

IndySun 6y ago
I have this on. But what happens to your stuff in the iCloud cloud after it activates? Probably sits there forever.

bronco21016 6y ago

> iCloud isn’t for you. I’ve come to this conclusion. So what are my options since Apple keeps such tight control on everything? Plug in nightly to iTunes or libimobiledevice? Stand up an iTunes server for LAN backups requiring Windows or macOS? What about the 30-40% of nights I’m on the road? I’m all for ditching iCloud for backups but Apple has made it really inconvenient to do automated backups with anything but iCloud. Libimobiledevice is slowly working towards LAN backups so we’re getting there but then I’m still in need of mDNS reflection to make it happen over WAN. I’ve made efforts into tying as much of my data to self-hosted solutions as possible but full device backup on your own hardware is still a gaping hole in the iOS ecosystem.

themeiguoren 6y ago
I backup my iPhone to my hard drive monthly. I really don’t think there’s a pressing need to have a live backup on your phone. On average, if I lose data, it’s only 15 days worth. If you’re this paranoid about security then back up every week.