4 ms·

This is a correlational study. So there is no causal link, there is a correlational association. I think the term "link" needs to be banned in this context. "as

This is a correlational study. So there is no causal link, there is a correlational association. I think the term "link" needs to be banned in this context. "associated" would be much clearer. Maybe the Hacker News mods could change the headline posted here. It's worth noting that Vitamin E supplementation is declining in the US, probably because several studies on its supplementation have not shown benefit (or shown harm). [1] The primary understood role of Vitamin E is as a fat soluble anti-oxidant, and that is primarily to stop PUFA (polyunsaturated fatty acid) oxidation. Most sources of PUFA come with Vitamin E, so this often works itself out in the diet. But cooking at higher temperature can destroy vitamin E. The Institute of Medicine didn't express the RDA as a ratio between vitamin E and PUFA, but they wrote that "high PUFA intakes should certainly be accompanied by increased vitamin E intakes." [2] A natural source of vitamin E that is low in PUFA is red palm oil. But another way of dealing with vitamin E status is to avoid most vegetable oils and thus lower PUFA intake. Vitamin C seems a more straightforward supplement, but even for that I avoid Vitamin C supplementation after exercise due to its potential inhibition of mitohormesis. [3] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_E#Declining_supplement_use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_E#Declining_supplement... [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK225461/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK225461/ [3] https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/106/21/8665.full.pdf https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/106/21/8665.full.pdf

haltingproblem 6y ago
This simple suggestions "link --> associated" will greatly help clear the fog around supplementation and nutritional studies. The other word that I would love to see is intervention study. Ultimately, intervention in a clinical context setup as a RCT (e.g. use of Vitamin D for Covid patients) is the best judge of clinical outcomes.
- zerocrates 6y ago
  But that's already what "link" means. If you make everyone use "associated" in this context it will just acquire the same colloquial connotation as "link" and you've gotten nowhere.
  - gregwebs 6y ago
    I think you are right and we need to use the actual term "correlated". "linked" has a stronger connotation then "associated" for me, and some dictionary definitions show this stronger connotation as well.
  - haltingproblem 6y ago
    Associational study also sometimes called observational studies are a term of art in the scientific literature. This is not semantic hair-splitting but calling what the scientists call it. Link can mean multiple things but associated or even better "associational study" clarifies things immensely.
baccheion 6y ago
There is a ratio. 5 mg + 0.5 * PUFA. For example, 20g PUFA = 15 mg vitamin E. It gets specific, as more is needed with longer chain PUFAs like DHA. Lipid peroxidation can also be handled with more vitamin A and 1g+ vitamin C (to recycle the oxidized vitamin A).
clumsysmurf 6y ago
Vitamin E is a group of chemicals, tocopherols and tocotrienols Many past studies have been poor in specifying the form used; some even used the synthetic version. Most Multivitamins / Supplements will just be the alpha tocopherol form. But the gamma tocopherol form might be the more important one. You can get low quantities of tocotrienols from rice, but its not too practical because it will come along with some arsenic ;) Also, they should all be gotten in balance, not just one out of proportion to the others. One supplement that does this is Jarrow Famil-e but there are others. Vitamin C is also tricky, its much more bioactive when present with certain bioflavanoids. So it might be best to get a lower dosage from fruits (like kiwis, which are high in Vitamin C) rather than a high dosage from supplement w/o bioflavanoids. With respect to mitohormesis, the study mentioned above does not seem to indicate the proximity of antioxidant supplementation to the exercise in its methods section, it simply says: " Participants in the antioxidant treatment groups (n=20 each, out of which n=10 were untrained and n=10 were pretrained) received 500 mg vitamin C (ascorbic acid, Jenapharm) twice a day and 400 IU vitamin E (RRR-/D--tocopherol, Jenapharm) once a day" In my mind, I would not take antioxidants "near" exercise, within an 8 hour window (4 hours before / after), but it would be nice to get some clarifications on this. I agree though, things are not so simple. Recently there was a story "Antioxidant-rich foods like black tea, chocolate, and berries may increase risk for certain cancers, new study finds". The theme is similar, antioxiandts gotten thorough the diet may short circuit your body's abilities. https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-07-antioxidant-rich-foods-black-tea-chocolate.html https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-07-antioxidant-rich-food...
- hinkley 6y ago
  > it will come along with some arsenic I saw a study a couple years ago that said you can reduce the arsenic load on rice by over half simply by rinsing it. Pushed me firmly into the 'always wash your rice' team. Probably not sufficient if you're trying to concentrate an extract from bulk quantities of rice, but I believe there are also ways to chelate arsenic.
dang 6y ago
Ok, we've edited the title to say that.

haltingproblem 6y ago

This simple suggestions "link --> associated" will greatly help clear the fog around supplementation and nutritional studies. The other word that I would love to see is intervention study. Ultimately, intervention in a clinical context setup as a RCT (e.g. use of Vitamin D for Covid patients) is the best judge of clinical outcomes.

zerocrates 6y ago
But that's already what "link" means. If you make everyone use "associated" in this context it will just acquire the same colloquial connotation as "link" and you've gotten nowhere.
- gregwebs 6y ago
  I think you are right and we need to use the actual term "correlated". "linked" has a stronger connotation then "associated" for me, and some dictionary definitions show this stronger connotation as well.
- haltingproblem 6y ago
  Associational study also sometimes called observational studies are a term of art in the scientific literature. This is not semantic hair-splitting but calling what the scientists call it. Link can mean multiple things but associated or even better "associational study" clarifies things immensely.

baccheion 6y ago

There is a ratio. 5 mg + 0.5 * PUFA. For example, 20g PUFA = 15 mg vitamin E. It gets specific, as more is needed with longer chain PUFAs like DHA. Lipid peroxidation can also be handled with more vitamin A and 1g+ vitamin C (to recycle the oxidized vitamin A).

clumsysmurf 6y ago

Vitamin E is a group of chemicals, tocopherols and tocotrienols Many past studies have been poor in specifying the form used; some even used the synthetic version. Most Multivitamins / Supplements will just be the alpha tocopherol form. But the gamma tocopherol form might be the more important one. You can get low quantities of tocotrienols from rice, but its not too practical because it will come along with some arsenic ;) Also, they should all be gotten in balance, not just one out of proportion to the others. One supplement that does this is Jarrow Famil-e but there are others. Vitamin C is also tricky, its much more bioactive when present with certain bioflavanoids. So it might be best to get a lower dosage from fruits (like kiwis, which are high in Vitamin C) rather than a high dosage from supplement w/o bioflavanoids. With respect to mitohormesis, the study mentioned above does not seem to indicate the proximity of antioxidant supplementation to the exercise in its methods section, it simply says: " Participants in the antioxidant treatment groups (n=20 each, out of which n=10 were untrained and n=10 were pretrained) received 500 mg vitamin C (ascorbic acid, Jenapharm) twice a day and 400 IU vitamin E (RRR-/D--tocopherol, Jenapharm) once a day" In my mind, I would not take antioxidants "near" exercise, within an 8 hour window (4 hours before / after), but it would be nice to get some clarifications on this. I agree though, things are not so simple. Recently there was a story "Antioxidant-rich foods like black tea, chocolate, and berries may increase risk for certain cancers, new study finds". The theme is similar, antioxiandts gotten thorough the diet may short circuit your body's abilities. https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-07-antioxidant-rich-foods-black-tea-chocolate.html https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-07-antioxidant-rich-food...

hinkley 6y ago
> it will come along with some arsenic I saw a study a couple years ago that said you can reduce the arsenic load on rice by over half simply by rinsing it. Pushed me firmly into the 'always wash your rice' team. Probably not sufficient if you're trying to concentrate an extract from bulk quantities of rice, but I believe there are also ways to chelate arsenic.

dang 6y ago

Ok, we've edited the title to say that.