5 ms·

And yet Scandinavian countries have had great success by raising the price and limiting the availability of store-bought alcohol. I think this is similar to so

by ath92 6y ago

And yet Scandinavian countries have had great success by raising the price and limiting the availability of store-bought alcohol. I think this is similar to some UX patterns we see in software: most people will go with the default option because it is easier. Raising the amount of effort needed for something means fewer people will end up doing it.

spurgu 6y ago
Not sure what you mean by "success"? In Finland at least so many people (especially from the south) regularly (pre-COVID at least) take the ferry to Estonia to buy alcohol in bulk because of the insanely high alcohol taxes. If that option didn't exist I'd expect moonshine (and/or illegal exports) to become much more common.
- Broken_Hippo 6y ago
  Folks in Norway would go to Sweden pre-COVID to buy alcohol. The in-country alcohol sales rose enough post-covid that the government is actually lowering the taxes on alcohol slightly, though whether it is enough to keep folks buying in Norway is debatable. I'd not be surprised if there wasn't a thriving black market even with all this.
- Aerroon 6y ago
  A few years ago the government in Estonia raised taxes a bit too much on alcohol. The result was that Estonians started going to Latvia to buy alcohol. I believe even a lot of Finns are (or were) now buying alcohol from Latvia. Even alcohol that's made in Estonia is cheaper in Latvia. There were some additional effects to this as well. Food is also cheaper in Latvia. Some people ended up doing a lot of their grocery shopping in Latvia as, because they were already there for be alcohol. Politically, the Social Democrats got most of the blame for the tax increase. They had a large drop in votes in the most recent parliamentary election.
  - spurgu 6y ago
    Thanks for the details/clarifications! I haven't lived in Finland for a couple of years so haven't really stayed up to date.
- ath92 6y ago
  See https://ourworldindata.org/alcohol-consumption#historical-perspective-on-alcohol-consumption https://ourworldindata.org/alcohol-consumption#historical-pe... Seems like people in Nordic countries (especially when not considering Denmark) consume less alcohol than their neighbours, although the difference has been decreasing.
DyslexicAtheist 6y ago
Finland and Sweden aren't exactly sober places. Finland also has one of the highest suicides in Europe and alcohol abuse sure plays into this. Sweden isn't a role-model either by criminalizing abuse and making alcohol expensive. It does nothing but make it a "prestige object". Nordic countries: https://www.statista.com/statistics/693505/per-capita-consumption-of-alcohol-in-the-nordic-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/693505/per-capita-consum...
wott 6y ago
> And yet Scandinavian countries have had great success by raising the price and limiting the availability of store-bought alcohol. Great success? 1. People there still buy a lot, even at expensive prices. 2. I have never seen so much heavy consumption and problems in Southern Europe than what I saw living in Finland. 3. I had never seen people brewing their own wine in their flat in my country (not counting real wine in farms when I was a kid, of course). Youngsters wouldn't even use berries like their elders, but just sugar & yeast (bearing the suiting name of 'kilju'). 4. You could sometimes illicitly buy moonshine alcohol from a car trunk on a car park, in plastic water bottles. Classy. 5. Anecdote: I remember vodka was smuggled from Russia in timber lorries (trunks were hollowed out and filled with bottles) :-D
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  This corresponds to my tourist experience. Compared to Italy or Spain, Finland has a lot of people with an obvious drink problem. Maybe it is in the wine vs. vodka difference; vodka, being much more concentrated, will wreak havoc on internal organs sooner. Including brain and liver.
bluescrn 6y ago
The problem with sin taxes is that they even further increase the divide between rich and poor. The wealthy won't be concerned if they're spending twice as much on booze, as it's such a small fraction of their income. But the working class may be denied one of their few pleasures - even if they were perfectly capable of keeping their consumption at reasonably healthy level. Even worse than taxing alcohol is trying reduce car use by taxing people off the roads (without significantly improving alternatives). That's taking away vast numbers of opportunities from those who need them the most.

by ath92 6y ago

spurgu 6y ago

Not sure what you mean by "success"? In Finland at least so many people (especially from the south) regularly (pre-COVID at least) take the ferry to Estonia to buy alcohol in bulk because of the insanely high alcohol taxes. If that option didn't exist I'd expect moonshine (and/or illegal exports) to become much more common.

Broken_Hippo 6y ago
Folks in Norway would go to Sweden pre-COVID to buy alcohol. The in-country alcohol sales rose enough post-covid that the government is actually lowering the taxes on alcohol slightly, though whether it is enough to keep folks buying in Norway is debatable. I'd not be surprised if there wasn't a thriving black market even with all this.
Aerroon 6y ago
A few years ago the government in Estonia raised taxes a bit too much on alcohol. The result was that Estonians started going to Latvia to buy alcohol. I believe even a lot of Finns are (or were) now buying alcohol from Latvia. Even alcohol that's made in Estonia is cheaper in Latvia. There were some additional effects to this as well. Food is also cheaper in Latvia. Some people ended up doing a lot of their grocery shopping in Latvia as, because they were already there for be alcohol. Politically, the Social Democrats got most of the blame for the tax increase. They had a large drop in votes in the most recent parliamentary election.
- spurgu 6y ago
  Thanks for the details/clarifications! I haven't lived in Finland for a couple of years so haven't really stayed up to date.
ath92 6y ago
See https://ourworldindata.org/alcohol-consumption#historical-perspective-on-alcohol-consumption https://ourworldindata.org/alcohol-consumption#historical-pe... Seems like people in Nordic countries (especially when not considering Denmark) consume less alcohol than their neighbours, although the difference has been decreasing.

DyslexicAtheist 6y ago

Finland and Sweden aren't exactly sober places. Finland also has one of the highest suicides in Europe and alcohol abuse sure plays into this. Sweden isn't a role-model either by criminalizing abuse and making alcohol expensive. It does nothing but make it a "prestige object". Nordic countries: https://www.statista.com/statistics/693505/per-capita-consumption-of-alcohol-in-the-nordic-countries/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/693505/per-capita-consum...

wott 6y ago

> And yet Scandinavian countries have had great success by raising the price and limiting the availability of store-bought alcohol. Great success? 1. People there still buy a lot, even at expensive prices. 2. I have never seen so much heavy consumption and problems in Southern Europe than what I saw living in Finland. 3. I had never seen people brewing their own wine in their flat in my country (not counting real wine in farms when I was a kid, of course). Youngsters wouldn't even use berries like their elders, but just sugar & yeast (bearing the suiting name of 'kilju'). 4. You could sometimes illicitly buy moonshine alcohol from a car trunk on a car park, in plastic water bottles. Classy. 5. Anecdote: I remember vodka was smuggled from Russia in timber lorries (trunks were hollowed out and filled with bottles) :-D

inglor_cz 6y ago
This corresponds to my tourist experience. Compared to Italy or Spain, Finland has a lot of people with an obvious drink problem. Maybe it is in the wine vs. vodka difference; vodka, being much more concentrated, will wreak havoc on internal organs sooner. Including brain and liver.

bluescrn 6y ago

The problem with sin taxes is that they even further increase the divide between rich and poor. The wealthy won't be concerned if they're spending twice as much on booze, as it's such a small fraction of their income. But the working class may be denied one of their few pleasures - even if they were perfectly capable of keeping their consumption at reasonably healthy level. Even worse than taxing alcohol is trying reduce car use by taxing people off the roads (without significantly improving alternatives). That's taking away vast numbers of opportunities from those who need them the most.