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Parisian Accent in 1912
- Bayart 6y agoEarly 20th c. Paris accents always bring back memories memories of Céline [1]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb_ZA_ZwRxA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb_ZA_ZwRxA
- edeion 6y agoThis is a recording from an interview of a Parisian craftsman that took place in 1912. The purpose was to study the different accents that were found in Paris at the time. They mention that it's easy to tell apart someone from Paris 14th arrondissement (south-ish) and someone from Montmarte (north). When the interviewee listens to the recording, he's astonished to hear why people have sometimes been mentioning slowness in his speech.
- kemenaran 6y agoThere are many more recordings in the BNF archives linked by the article. There are even recordings of people speaking latin and Esperanto in 1912. Fascinating stuff!
- enriquto 6y agoIt is fascinating how fast accents change. I have recordings from my childhood (30 years ago) and you can hear a definitely different accent! Today only people born in small towns speak like that, but I had never left my city by that time,
- raverbashing 6y agoNo kidding. The way I managed to identify the accents of my own city was to not live there anymore. Then you come back and suddenly most people have an accent! It's funny.
- Foobar8568 6y agoI am from south east in France (nearby Marseille), now living in Switzerland, and while my accent was fairly tamed for a provençale, before, I have taken a light French Swiss accent now :'
- colechristensen 6y agoI moved from iowa to minnesota and made some friends from rural wisconsin, my mother was quite amused when a new accent would come out from time to time.
- Foobar8568 6y agoAnother funny one, the more "locally idiomatic" an expression, the heavier is my accent.
- poulsbohemian 6y agoEach one of those are very distinctive, and even eastern Iowa is more like Wisconsin than the rest of the state. You ask any of those people to say a word like "cow" with a vowel and you get different and notable accents. I recall meeting a woman recently who had been born and raised in Seattle, but her parents came from Wisconsin - I knew, because I could clearly hear their accent in her speech.
- mrighele 6y agoA few years ago I moved for work from a town in northern Italy to another. While only 70km away the two places have very distinct accents. After a couple of years people from my hometown would comment on how I sounded as a guy from the new town (people from the second town would never mistake my origins though, so I guess I had a funny mixed accent).
- nippoo 6y agoThis is also noteworthy because it's the first time (presumably only in French) that we have a recording of someone listening back to their own voice and reacting to it. The interviewee clearly recognises their own voice, and is surprised at how heavy their accent is! It must have been an odd feeling - like looking at your reflection for the first time!
- yaantc 6y agoI went through this same experience as a student, having gone "up" to Paris. As part of a "communication class" we were taped, and then saw our own recording. Video was not as common at the time as it is nowadays, but to me it was quite shocking: I could barely understand myself! It was not only the accent (now weaker with time), but also mumbling plus talking too fast. It was a good experience. Definitely motivated me to pay more attention when I speak, slow down and articulate more (the accent part was not the main issue there ;).
- agumonkey 6y agoWhat makes me think is that people before this and photography didn't have precise recordings of anything natural. Images, sounds, videos... all that was totally evanescent and inspecting it wasn't even in the people's mind I guess.
- SilasX 6y agoI remember some Reddit shower thought that the first person to record and play back sound must have thought they did it wrong when they heard their own voice.
- spongepoc 6y agoPeople placed a lot more 'art' into their speech than people nowadays. You hear it in the old English of England as well with the particularity of enunciation. Speech was the main interface of communication compared to today's more logocentric and multimedia audio visual world. In our age we appear to place that art into crafting text messages (nuances of capitalisation, punctuation, abbreviations, emojis etc.).
- dmch-1 6y agoPerhaps being recorded was a big deal back then. So they made more effort. Today it is common to have ones speech recorded, even for mass media.
- pmezard 6y agoOne of the highlighted characteristic of this recording, is it is a live conversation, not something rehearsed. So, while what you said may be true for radio broadcasts, I am not sure it is at play here even if the interviewee knows he is being recorded.
- alricb 6y agoIn 1912, the recording equipment would have been quite conspicuous.
- seszett 6y agoI don't know if I would call that art, if we're talking about the traditional Parisian accent that is linked here (a popular accent, mostly used by lower classes). Today it sounds rather uneducated, and although it is easier to understand than many other local French accents, it doesn't sound especially clearer than modern speech. Although it might sound clearer to English speakers because it features more word-level stress while standard French doesn't really have it (but this has not been lost recently).
- ryanianian 6y ago
- fantod 6y agoSounds like my grandfather.
- m3at 6y agoInteresting, while listening it sounded to me like the accent in François Truffaut's films. Then I realized that those films are closer to that recording than current times! (The 400 Blows is from 1959)
- norswap 6y agoI had the same reaction, I heard similar accents in old pieces of media - even by some people that are still famous today (though mostly dead).
- jjgreen 6y agoUnrelated, but the English literal translation of Les quatre cents coups is just daft, it should have been "The school of hard knocks" or similar.
- Seb-C 6y agoFor me all the old accents feels similar, so it reminds me of some Louis-de-Funès movies. My grand-parents still today have a similar way of speaking as well. It is not only the accent, but also the pace and vocabulary. Also, nowadays everybody is speaking casual French, but formal French was actually a thing in the past ;)
- bencollier49 6y agoI suppose accents are changing rapidly everywhere. We recently found a recording of my parents talking to me as a baby in the late 1970s. They both sounded like the actors from "The Good Life". The question is - is it happening more quickly than before. Almost certainly, I'd say, if you listen to examples of London accents across the centuries like these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lXv3Tt4x20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lXv3Tt4x20
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- pjc50 6y agoYes, radio started flattening them out and ubiquitous video is only going to accelerate that process.
- gibspaulding 6y agoI really noticed this working in a school when I lived in Tennessee. A lot of the faculty had fairly heavy southern accents, but I don't remember ever noticing it with the students. It makes sense though when you realize that a huge chunk of the voices the students learned from were on YouTube, TV, etc., not just people from their own hometown.
- rsynnott 6y ago> Almost certainly, I'd say, if you listen to examples of London accents across the centuries like these MAJOR caveat there; to a large extent that's presumably based on people _guessing_ what a London accent was like 600 years ago. There's some evidence, but there certainly aren't recordings, and there'd be ~no information on the small details.
- severus_snape 6y agoArletty's accent[1] in Hôtel du Nord (1938) is amazing too! [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYic1U1a6yw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYic1U1a6yw
- johnchristopher 6y agoI don't like it. It sounds like fast bullet sentences exagerated for cinematic effects. I appreciate it but I associate it with movies from that period, not with how people really talked.
- kergonath 6y agoI used to know someone who talked just like that.
- julienchastang 6y agoHôtel du Nord has been on my watch list for a long time. Thanks for the reminder. It looks like the waterway in the background is the Canal Saint-Martin. Sometimes people forget there are other waterways in Paris besides the Seine :-)
- ginko 6y agoThis is a French language article. I don't understand what this is supposed to be about. Is everyone commenting so far French?
- Fnoord 6y ago> Is everyone commenting so far French? You don't have to be French to understand French. There are other countries where French is the main language, and you can speak French as your second (or third, ..) language. You can use DeepL or Google Translate to translate to a language you understand.
- ginko 6y ago>You don't have to be French to understand French. There are other countries where French is the main language, and you can speak French as your second (or third, ..) language. Obviously. I still don't understand why this is on frontpage.
- Renaud 6y agoUsing the novel technology of the time (gramophone) to record hyper-local accents and witness someone discovering his own accent, probably one of the first ever to do so. It's an interesting turning point in the history of modern technology, a bit like the first time someone saw himself in a picture or in a movie.
- Fnoord 6y ago1912, the content would fit the term antique. It denotes, with proof, how accents evolve. The proof is relatively unique for its age. Hence, it is historic, it is history. Relevant history, even, given the uniqueness. For me, personally (YMMV), I am going to link it to my mother (born 1951, my father passed away) who has been to Paris in the 70s with my father, as well as with me about 10 years ago. She's also far better in French than I am. I'm curious on her take. Same with my mother-in-law; she loves the French language. Here's another example which shows how society changes. A Trip Down Market Street [1], San Francisco a couple of days or weeks before the 1906 earthquake. You can take from it what you want, what I found interesting I commented on in that item [2]. If people upvoted, it was deemed interesting. Regardless, you don't have to enjoy it. I know this is primarily a native English speaking website, but does that mean interesting history from outside of native English speaking regions is forbidden? [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15944621 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15944621 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16034871 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16034871
- simias 6y agoIt's amusing hearing them discuss the differences between the accents of Montparnasse, Montmartre and La Villette. Who today could identify where, within Paris somebody is coming from based on accents only? I know I couldn't. The world was bigger back then, a different arrondissement was already a foreign place.
- jrochkind1 6y agoI don't disagree. That still exists to some extent. I don't think I could tell a Brooklyn accent from a Bronx accent, but i think some can? (Can they hear it in 20-year-olds not just 60-year-olds? Not sure).
- gecko 6y agoI can very easily tell Bronx from Brooklyn from Manhattan from Queens, in some cases down to specific neighborhoods or cultures...but really only in folks 60+, maybe occasionally in people more in the 40+ range who had fairly isolated upbringings, but that's it. Any younger than that, I often can only even tell you're from New York City by word choice and slang, not accent. I suspect that's similar to what's going on in Paris, albeit I'm in absolutely no position to know. (For context: I did not grow up in NYC, but my family was from there, and I lived there for quite awhile myself as well. It's entirely possible someone who did grow up in NYC can do better than I can, but, at least to my ear, it gets very close to just standard American broadcast English the younger you go, so I doubt it.)
- jeanjogr 6y agoThe usual caveat about Paris applies: the city of Paris is but a tiny core of the larger Paris metropolitan area (Paris: 2.1M people, Paris metro: c. 10M). Paris is about one fifth of its metro area, a city like NYC is about half. A closer analogue to being able to distinguish accents from Montparnasse, Montmartre and La Villette would be to able to distinguish accents from different places in Manhattan. I think even today there are substantial accent differences within the Paris metropolitan area (think Versailles vs le Marais vs Aulnay), but within Paris proper not so much.
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- herve76 6y agoIs this the first podcast in our history?
- isolli 6y agoRelated: I really enjoyed the movie Inglourious Basterds. It was especially original and interesting, as it relied heavily on languages and accents for the plot. However, what killed my suspension of disbelief (as a native French speaker) was the fact that the French actress spoke with an unmistakable early 21st century accent, definitely out of place in a second world war movie. This was a big letdown, considering how much attention had been given to accents in the rest of the movie.
- hpkuarg 6y agoWhat a great movie! Still my favorite Tarantino film to date. I suppose the whole accents thing was directed for the primarily Anglophone viewer (since some of it depends on reading the subtitles, if you do not understand the language), so perhaps we can forgive Mélanie Laurent for not bothering with a 1940s accent.
- koyote 6y agoIt's been a while since I've last watched it and I might be completely wrong here as I am no expert in accents, but I believe that none of the languages spoken had an accent that sounded like someone from the 1940s. Both the English and German were much closer to a 21st century accent than a 1940s one, and so was the French one as you mentioned.
- kome 6y agoit's me, or it sounds a bit like french swiss accent?
- dirktheman 6y agoI scored straight A's in french back in school. Then I went to work in France, expecting little issues with understanding the locals. Turns out understanding a heavy Auvergnat accent is... difficult! I wrestled with the accent a couple of weeks, but after a while it 'clicked'. This was pretty much a matter of 'waking up and not having to translate it in your mind', a very strange sensation. I learned to distinct several accents: Parisian and Marseillais are different beasts, and Swiss-french is also different (I totally dig their counting system though, septante, huitante et nonante makes so much more sense). Also, I learned that the french in school is nothing like the french they speak in France. Sure, you get by and they'll understand you, but french relies heavy on vernacular, sayings and expressions. Nowadays people think I'm a Walloon (French-speaking from Belgium, while I'm Dutch), which is a great compliment to me!
- brnt 6y agoWhat's interesting and weird to me: both Dutch and French speakers from Belgium (so, Flemish and Walloon people) often sound like they have the same accent when speaking English! To me at least. Anybody else noticed this?
- dep_b 6y agoFrench R and soft G are shared among other things between the French and people from the South of Holland and below.
- roelschroeven 6y agoAnd Flemish people have a totally different accent when speaking English than Dutch people. TO my ears most Dutch people have a distinct English accent; some more than others, but almost always identifiable as from Dutch origin. Walter Lewin (as in e.g. https://youtu.be/sJG-rXBbmCc https://youtu.be/sJG-rXBbmCc) is a quite extreme example, despite the fact that he has lived in the US since 1966. Carice van Houten (Melisandre in Game of Thrones) has it too but less pronounced. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Flemish people have a distinct English accent too, and that I simply don't notice it as much (being Flemish myself). Germans speaking English are often recognizable as well.
- js2 6y agoSome interesting U.S. accents: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6089621A87373FBE https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6089621A87373FBE The oddest is Tangier Island, VA: https://youtu.be/AIZgw09CG9E https://youtu.be/AIZgw09CG9E Relevant to this submission, a Cajun accent: https://youtu.be/hV8TQTUSsgw https://youtu.be/hV8TQTUSsgw Relevant to HN, tech talk circa 1985: https://youtu.be/C4ctm0tElsU https://youtu.be/C4ctm0tElsU
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- asveikau 6y ago> Relevant to HN, tech talk circa 1985: > https://youtu.be/C4ctm0tElsU https://youtu.be/C4ctm0tElsU Since this thread is about accents, I start watching that and immediately hearing the guy say "hard drive" and "automatic" I think: he's from New York.
- sl120 6y agoIncredible to hear this accent but also the fact that it's completely clear and comprehensible, if different sounding, than the modern Parisian accent!
- julienchastang 6y agoWhat I found endearing about the guy being interviewed was that he would often start off his sentences with "Ahhhh".
- pipologist 6y agoSo is there a big difference between the artisan’s accent and modern day Parisian accents? Other than the recording quality and lack of modern fillers like ben ouais bof quoi etc, I can’t personally tell.
- tomcam 6y agoIt’s markedly less refined than modern Parisian French, though I mostly hang out in District 7. Your mileage may vary.
- idoubtit 6y agoAt some point, the interviewer and the interviewee discuss how easy it is to tell apart the accents attached to various neighbourhoods in Paris. For those interested with the same process with the English language, I strongly recommend the film Pygmalion (1938) which I enjoyed much more than the later My Fair Lady. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_(1938_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmalion_(1938_film) Over the last decades living in France, I've heard several friends that lost their accent, notably from Loire and Jura. Of course some new French accents may emerge locally or in some communities, but the geography plays a lesser role.
- julienchastang 6y agoFunny to see France Culture (originally just a radio station pre-internet) on the top of HackerNews. France Culture was often playing in the background when I would go visit my Parisian relatives. For those French language speakers, I recommend listening to the “La Méthode scientifique” science news podcast [1]. [1] https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/la-methode-scientifique https://www.franceculture.fr/emissions/la-methode-scientifiq...
- rapht 6y agoAs a native French speaker, what most strikes me in this recording is actually the contrast between: - the language level, which is very much higher than what you would get recording anyone on the street today, with fairly rich grammatical forms, and few of the now common shortcuts or mistakes - in a way, a more beautiful and educated French than you can find in most of today's France, the kind you'd find only in older traditional upper class families - the accent itself, which has kind of a lower-social-status conotation; - the guy pronouncing everything, who is neither in the highs nor in the lows of society, but a middle class small busines owner who presumably did not receive higher (nor probably even high school) education Were I not an optimist, I'd say this unfortunately is a sad illustration of what has become of education and language in our country, and more generally the acceptance by our society of everything and anything under the pretext that everyone deserves a chance even when they don't match the level previously judged as the acceptable minimum.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- glandium 6y ago> - the guy pronouncing everything What I found interesting is that while he does pronounce more things than a typical Parisian would today, he does skip some e's, in a very typical Parisian manner.
- canjobear 6y agoFascinating, sounds like a mix of high-class grammar with low-class phonology.
- dang 6y agoPosts to HN are supposed to be in English*, but this thread is so good that we'll make an exception. * https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=english%20language%20site%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
- tomcam 6y agoC'est bon
- cosmiccatnap 6y agoThe cookies this site uses to track you is impressive. Roughly 4 pages of things you have to opt out of just to listen to this.
- bertil 6y agoIt’s striking how much he sounds like my grand-mother who was born in 1920 about 400 m from there (Luxembourg). Same attention to language without being aristocratic or effete; same reluctance to sound slow.
- mintmen 6y agoIt's very sing-songey - more ups and downs in the cadence. I quite like how easy it was to understand (and slow!), compared to modern Parisian French.
- efwfwef 6y agoThey speak like my grand mother pretty much (who's not from paris but from the south). Slow, old words and expressions, same intonation towards the end.
- tomcam 6y agoFor my first trip to Poland I learned how to say “Sorry, I can’t speak Polish“ in Polish, with a perfect BBC Polish accent. I figured it was the least I could do. Unfortunately, it was treated as a NOP. People would simply repeat what they said but with even more explanation. In retrospect I can imagine that if someone said “sorry, I can’t speak English“ in an accent in English I might make the same mistake. A couple of years later I ended up with a beautiful Polish girlfriend and she spoke no English. In six weeks with the help of a pocket phrase book and Polish/English dictionary constantly by my side I could hold a conversation in Polish perfectly well. The things that motivate us…