4 ms·

> In pretty much all of the EU, even in expensive cities like Stockholm or Dublin, if you earn a salary of €100,000, you can live a pretty decent life. Define

> In pretty much all of the EU, even in expensive cities like Stockholm or Dublin, if you earn a salary of €100,000, you can live a pretty decent life. Define "decent". In the top tier cities in western EU countries, buying even a modest apartment that will house a small family will be a challenge on €100k (pre-tax!). It is certainly doable, but you will not be able to afford any other luxuries.

dgellow 6y ago
What locations are you considering? Because €100k/year in Germany is a really high income.
- thesimon 6y ago
  Still, buying a house for your family will be difficult in the main cities.
  - dgellow 6y ago
    But almost nobody buy a house for their family in city centers. People rent/buy apartments, or just move a few kms outside and buy/build a full house.
- f6v 6y ago
  100k puts you in 1% of the earners, you can get that money as a CTO. Definitely not as a software engineer.
  - maigret 6y ago
    You actually can get that salary in big companies as senior developer, often with team responsibilities. Example: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Germany-Salaries-EI_IE9079.0,6_IL.7,14_IN96.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Germany-Salaries-EI_... And it's not only Google.
  - seppel 6y ago
    You can easily get into that range as a principal software engineer in Germany. E.g, finance and car industry will pay that, depending on the niche even in a startup if you negotiate properly. 100k will also not put you in the 1% of the earners if you consider the cities where the high paying jobs are.
    - dgellow 6y ago
      You mean in Munich, right? Anywhere outside of Munich €100k is a really high salary for a software engineer. Not impossible to get, I know of a few companies that offer that kind of compensation or even higher and are located in Berlin (though all of them have their HQ in the US), but that's very high income compared to the rest of the market. In any case, the point is that with €100k/year you can really have way more than a decent life. More like a very, very comfortable life.
      - seppel 6y ago
        > You mean in Munich, right? Anywhere outside of Munich €100k is a really high salary for a software engineer These salaries are also possible in Berlin, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Hamburg, Mannheim, Heidelberg (and more, this is where I know) > In any case, the point is that with €100k/year you can really have way more than a decent life. More like a very, very comfortable life. Well so what? They shouldnt pay more because it is already a decent salary and give the rest to the share holders? It's no wonder that avarage salaries are low if people approach salary negotiations with this kind of attitude.
        dgellow 6y ago
        I think that you miss the context of the thread
marcus_holmes 6y ago
Europe doesn't value property ownership like the UK/USA/AU does - it's perfectly normal to rent for your entire life, and owning your own home is not seen as a requirement for a good life or even a wealthy one.
- f6v 6y ago
  Europe is not homogeneous. Renting your whole life in Berlin? Yeah, maybe. But most of the Belgians are buying houses. I also heard Italians say it's crucial for them to own a house/apartment.
  - marcus_holmes 6y ago
    This is true, but even then it's not the same cult of home ownership == wealth as the Anglo culture has.
- tiborsaas 6y ago
  In Hungary the reverse is true. Owning a home gives you benefits a rental will never can. Plus you are gaining capital compared to using your salary and considering it as an expense. It's not required to own, sure, but it increases your comfort level significantly.
- littlestymaar 6y ago
  > Europe doesn't value property ownership like the UK/USA/AU does It's funny, because my father in law (French, but who spent quite some times living in the US) often says the opposite: “Americans don't value property ownership. That's because they have wooden houses that last for a few decades and get replaced, while in Europe we buy stone that last for centuries”. Clichés are clichés. UK is in Europe btw ;)
  - marcus_holmes 6y ago
    Not any more ;)
- Hamuko 6y ago
tiborsaas 6y ago
You make it sound like you must buy a home with a years worth of salary. Vast majority of people gets mortgages to finance their homes.
littlestymaar 6y ago
> In the top tier cities in western EU countries, buying even a modest apartment that will house a small family will be a challenge on €100k (pre-tax!). It is certainly doable, but you will not be able to afford any other luxuries. I would consider Paris a top-tier city, and while none of my friends make more than 100k, half of us bought our house already (we're all late 20s, early 30s, with a few kids starting to pop-up). If you make 80k€[1] pre-tax in Paris (that's a good salary for SWE here), you can borrow more than 300k€. For a couple, that means buying a 700k€ flat/house, you can even live in the middle of Paris for that price! And we're talking about one of the most expensive city in Europe, with a massive housing bubble since 2000 (where the price was 2.74 times lower, adjusted for the evolution of salaries[2]). In Europe, you are affluent with less than 100k€. [1]: I'm talking about «super brut», which is how much money you cost to your employer, not the «brut» which appears on your working contract (which would be around 57k€ in this example) [2] https://stymaar.fr/net/Capture%20du%202021-01-14%2012-11-55.png https://stymaar.fr/net/Capture%20du%202021-01-14%2012-11-55...., source Jacques Friggit (http://www.cgedd.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/prix-immobilier-evolution-a-long-terme-a1048.html http://www.cgedd.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/prix-immobili...)

dgellow 6y ago

What locations are you considering? Because €100k/year in Germany is a really high income.

thesimon 6y ago
Still, buying a house for your family will be difficult in the main cities.
- dgellow 6y ago
  But almost nobody buy a house for their family in city centers. People rent/buy apartments, or just move a few kms outside and buy/build a full house.
f6v 6y ago
100k puts you in 1% of the earners, you can get that money as a CTO. Definitely not as a software engineer.
- maigret 6y ago
  You actually can get that salary in big companies as senior developer, often with team responsibilities. Example: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Germany-Salaries-EI_IE9079.0,6_IL.7,14_IN96.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Germany-Salaries-EI_... And it's not only Google.
- seppel 6y ago
  You can easily get into that range as a principal software engineer in Germany. E.g, finance and car industry will pay that, depending on the niche even in a startup if you negotiate properly. 100k will also not put you in the 1% of the earners if you consider the cities where the high paying jobs are.
  - dgellow 6y ago
    You mean in Munich, right? Anywhere outside of Munich €100k is a really high salary for a software engineer. Not impossible to get, I know of a few companies that offer that kind of compensation or even higher and are located in Berlin (though all of them have their HQ in the US), but that's very high income compared to the rest of the market. In any case, the point is that with €100k/year you can really have way more than a decent life. More like a very, very comfortable life.
    - seppel 6y ago
      > You mean in Munich, right? Anywhere outside of Munich €100k is a really high salary for a software engineer These salaries are also possible in Berlin, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Hamburg, Mannheim, Heidelberg (and more, this is where I know) > In any case, the point is that with €100k/year you can really have way more than a decent life. More like a very, very comfortable life. Well so what? They shouldnt pay more because it is already a decent salary and give the rest to the share holders? It's no wonder that avarage salaries are low if people approach salary negotiations with this kind of attitude.
      - dgellow 6y ago
        I think that you miss the context of the thread

marcus_holmes 6y ago

Europe doesn't value property ownership like the UK/USA/AU does - it's perfectly normal to rent for your entire life, and owning your own home is not seen as a requirement for a good life or even a wealthy one.

f6v 6y ago
Europe is not homogeneous. Renting your whole life in Berlin? Yeah, maybe. But most of the Belgians are buying houses. I also heard Italians say it's crucial for them to own a house/apartment.
- marcus_holmes 6y ago
  This is true, but even then it's not the same cult of home ownership == wealth as the Anglo culture has.
tiborsaas 6y ago
In Hungary the reverse is true. Owning a home gives you benefits a rental will never can. Plus you are gaining capital compared to using your salary and considering it as an expense. It's not required to own, sure, but it increases your comfort level significantly.
littlestymaar 6y ago
> Europe doesn't value property ownership like the UK/USA/AU does It's funny, because my father in law (French, but who spent quite some times living in the US) often says the opposite: “Americans don't value property ownership. That's because they have wooden houses that last for a few decades and get replaced, while in Europe we buy stone that last for centuries”. Clichés are clichés. UK is in Europe btw ;)
- marcus_holmes 6y ago
  Not any more ;)
Hamuko 6y ago

tiborsaas 6y ago

You make it sound like you must buy a home with a years worth of salary. Vast majority of people gets mortgages to finance their homes.

littlestymaar 6y ago

> In the top tier cities in western EU countries, buying even a modest apartment that will house a small family will be a challenge on €100k (pre-tax!). It is certainly doable, but you will not be able to afford any other luxuries. I would consider Paris a top-tier city, and while none of my friends make more than 100k, half of us bought our house already (we're all late 20s, early 30s, with a few kids starting to pop-up). If you make 80k€[1] pre-tax in Paris (that's a good salary for SWE here), you can borrow more than 300k€. For a couple, that means buying a 700k€ flat/house, you can even live in the middle of Paris for that price! And we're talking about one of the most expensive city in Europe, with a massive housing bubble since 2000 (where the price was 2.74 times lower, adjusted for the evolution of salaries[2]). In Europe, you are affluent with less than 100k€. [1]: I'm talking about «super brut», which is how much money you cost to your employer, not the «brut» which appears on your working contract (which would be around 57k€ in this example) [2] https://stymaar.fr/net/Capture%20du%202021-01-14%2012-11-55.png https://stymaar.fr/net/Capture%20du%202021-01-14%2012-11-55...., source Jacques Friggit (http://www.cgedd.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/prix-immobilier-evolution-a-long-terme-a1048.html http://www.cgedd.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/prix-immobili...)