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> I believe with every fiber of my being that simple drug dealing is a victimless crime. Quick, ugly counterexample: Date rape drugs. You can of course say t

> I believe with every fiber of my being that simple drug dealing is a victimless crime. Quick, ugly counterexample: Date rape drugs. You can of course say that the crime is on whoever uses it but criminal neglect is a thing. Somewhat more nuanced example: Vulnerable people are still given highly addictive drugs as "marketing" from dealers. This isn't something all of those victims have chosen, so I'd say it isn't victimless. That said I agree that there's a fair chance that legalizing many drugs would bring large benefits to society.

seibelj 6y ago
Any store that sells knives contributes to murders. I would argue that alcohol is the biggest date rape drug by a large amount. Do you advocate banning alcohol?
- skinkestek 6y ago
  > Any store that sells knives contributes to murders. Many countries has laws that regulate the sale of certain kinds of knives that are created primarily for use in fights/combat. > I would argue that alcohol is the biggest date rape drug by a large amount. Do you advocate banning alcohol? Good point. There's still an order of magnitude or two between those options. Also the alcohol is mostly consumed voluntarily unlike date rape drugs that are almost only consumed involuntarily.
  - seibelj 6y ago
    The most common "date rape" drug (GHB) is consumed by many not for sexual violence, but for its depressive effects. I have observed several people who used it because of how it made them feel. So again, saying drug dealers are selling drugs specifically to help rapists, is no more likely than the liquor store specifically selling to wife beaters and drunk drivers.
    - skinkestek 6y ago
      That's interesting, thanks! Now a quick question for you: are you equally for second amendment rights? The same logic applies here IMO. FTR: I'm in favour of 2nd amendment rights (in the US at least) but not a hardliner, so I'm mentally processing now if this goes both ways and I should agree with you. I don't think so but I'm considering it.
      - seibelj 6y ago
        I'm not sure the link between the legalization of drugs argument and 2nd amendment, but yes I support the right of people to own guns. I can abide by reasonable restrictions but free people should be allowed to own firearms.
- KMag 6y ago
  I think the GP means "date rape drug" to mean CNS depressants that are extremely unlikely to be used recreationally.
  - Uberphallus 6y ago
    Which don't exist. All date-rape drugs are used recreationally in smaller amounts.
    - KMag 6y ago
      Well, that's embarrassing. Thanks for educating me. I don't know how it didn't click that out of all the CNS depressants I know, only the one (Rohypnol) isn't found pleasant by people (within some dose range). Turns out I was wrong. I remembered years ago reading, and recognizing as BS, some policeman's story about a bust of GHB dealers, implying there were no recreational uses, and that it must be intended for date-rape. Yet somehow I still believed some TV scare report in high school that having Rohypnol without a prescription could only mean it was intended for date-rape. On a side note, I did know of recreational chloroform use. My dad is a retired anesthesiologist, and our family kind of adopted one of his closest work friends, a much older nurse anesthitist, as a surrogate third grandmother. In the old days, after a long surgical case, she would often drive home pleasantly buzzed from second-hand chloroform inhalation. In the old days, the nurse anesthetist would sit right over the patient with a stopwatch and an eye dropper full of chloroform, adding a few drops to gauze over the patient's mouth every time the patient's pulse got a bit fast.
      - Uberphallus 6y ago
        Yep. The only drugs I see not being used recreationally are antipsychotics and antidepressants, and even among those there are some exceptions. And possibly scopolamine and other deliriants, but those are arguably the worst date-rape drugs ever despite the media hype. Alcohol is legal, everywhere, and just works better.
Dma54rhs 6y ago
GHB what most consider a date rape drug is also used widely by people on themselves as a... Drug like any other. Probably alcohol is the most common 'rape drug' out there.
vagrantJin 6y ago
Points noted but here is were I must diverge, > This isn't something all of those victims have chosen, so I'd say it isn't victimless. In a manner of speaking, this rings hollow to my ears - a sort of platitude. I would make a counter example with depression drugs. A former colleague, lives in NY amd has his wife and daughter on anti-depressants. Upon inquiry on why they were drugged up, his response was both spine chilling and grotesque. "They've been feeling a bit down lately. " A medical professional saw fit to prescribe an otherwise healthy 12yr old and a healthy 34yr old anti-depressants because those drugs are legal. That was eye opening. The medical establishment is using their trust to peddle these drugs Have you met someone taking anti-depressants then they stop? I havent. Small sample size but I still havent.
bouncycastle 6y ago
The seized darknet website had a ToS prohibiting date rape drugs such as GBH. Is this common among darknet marketplaces, or just to this one? Source: https://twitter.com/DarkDotFail/status/1299444442584158208/photo/3 https://twitter.com/DarkDotFail/status/1299444442584158208/p...

seibelj 6y ago

Any store that sells knives contributes to murders. I would argue that alcohol is the biggest date rape drug by a large amount. Do you advocate banning alcohol?

skinkestek 6y ago
> Any store that sells knives contributes to murders. Many countries has laws that regulate the sale of certain kinds of knives that are created primarily for use in fights/combat. > I would argue that alcohol is the biggest date rape drug by a large amount. Do you advocate banning alcohol? Good point. There's still an order of magnitude or two between those options. Also the alcohol is mostly consumed voluntarily unlike date rape drugs that are almost only consumed involuntarily.
- seibelj 6y ago
  The most common "date rape" drug (GHB) is consumed by many not for sexual violence, but for its depressive effects. I have observed several people who used it because of how it made them feel. So again, saying drug dealers are selling drugs specifically to help rapists, is no more likely than the liquor store specifically selling to wife beaters and drunk drivers.
  - skinkestek 6y ago
    That's interesting, thanks! Now a quick question for you: are you equally for second amendment rights? The same logic applies here IMO. FTR: I'm in favour of 2nd amendment rights (in the US at least) but not a hardliner, so I'm mentally processing now if this goes both ways and I should agree with you. I don't think so but I'm considering it.
    - seibelj 6y ago
      I'm not sure the link between the legalization of drugs argument and 2nd amendment, but yes I support the right of people to own guns. I can abide by reasonable restrictions but free people should be allowed to own firearms.
KMag 6y ago
I think the GP means "date rape drug" to mean CNS depressants that are extremely unlikely to be used recreationally.
- Uberphallus 6y ago
  Which don't exist. All date-rape drugs are used recreationally in smaller amounts.
  - KMag 6y ago
    Well, that's embarrassing. Thanks for educating me. I don't know how it didn't click that out of all the CNS depressants I know, only the one (Rohypnol) isn't found pleasant by people (within some dose range). Turns out I was wrong. I remembered years ago reading, and recognizing as BS, some policeman's story about a bust of GHB dealers, implying there were no recreational uses, and that it must be intended for date-rape. Yet somehow I still believed some TV scare report in high school that having Rohypnol without a prescription could only mean it was intended for date-rape. On a side note, I did know of recreational chloroform use. My dad is a retired anesthesiologist, and our family kind of adopted one of his closest work friends, a much older nurse anesthitist, as a surrogate third grandmother. In the old days, after a long surgical case, she would often drive home pleasantly buzzed from second-hand chloroform inhalation. In the old days, the nurse anesthetist would sit right over the patient with a stopwatch and an eye dropper full of chloroform, adding a few drops to gauze over the patient's mouth every time the patient's pulse got a bit fast.
    - Uberphallus 6y ago
      Yep. The only drugs I see not being used recreationally are antipsychotics and antidepressants, and even among those there are some exceptions. And possibly scopolamine and other deliriants, but those are arguably the worst date-rape drugs ever despite the media hype. Alcohol is legal, everywhere, and just works better.

Dma54rhs 6y ago

GHB what most consider a date rape drug is also used widely by people on themselves as a... Drug like any other. Probably alcohol is the most common 'rape drug' out there.

vagrantJin 6y ago

Points noted but here is were I must diverge, > This isn't something all of those victims have chosen, so I'd say it isn't victimless. In a manner of speaking, this rings hollow to my ears - a sort of platitude. I would make a counter example with depression drugs. A former colleague, lives in NY amd has his wife and daughter on anti-depressants. Upon inquiry on why they were drugged up, his response was both spine chilling and grotesque. "They've been feeling a bit down lately. " A medical professional saw fit to prescribe an otherwise healthy 12yr old and a healthy 34yr old anti-depressants because those drugs are legal. That was eye opening. The medical establishment is using their trust to peddle these drugs Have you met someone taking anti-depressants then they stop? I havent. Small sample size but I still havent.

bouncycastle 6y ago

The seized darknet website had a ToS prohibiting date rape drugs such as GBH. Is this common among darknet marketplaces, or just to this one? Source: https://twitter.com/DarkDotFail/status/1299444442584158208/photo/3 https://twitter.com/DarkDotFail/status/1299444442584158208/p...