5 ms·

Having worked at Apple and other big companies it's almost always Engineers and PMs making these decisions. It's not like Tim Cook or Craig Federighi is runnin

Having worked at Apple and other big companies it's almost always Engineers and PMs making these decisions. It's not like Tim Cook or Craig Federighi is running around demanding people add Apple apps to a firewall exclusion list. They have much bigger things to worry about. It's just that as an engineer you are often in a bubble and can't foresee every implication of your decision. That's why Apple has the Developer and Public Beta releases for iOS/OSX so that external users can provide feedback. And on this occasion just like on many other they will take action if necessary.

eyelidlessness 6y ago
> Having worked at Apple and other big companies it's almost always Engineers and PMs making these decisions. It's not like Tim Cook or Craig Federighi is running around demanding people add Apple apps to a firewall exclusion list. They have much bigger things to worry about. This more or less confirms my hunch. Thanks for inside perspective on it. That’s how literally every other org works but I know Apple got this reputation for having a very executive-micromanaged culture under both Jobs eras, it’s good to have a reminder that at the end of the day it’s not the borg.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  > it’s good to have a reminder that at the end of the day it’s not the borg. The impression I always got was more like a mid-to-late USSR than the Borg (in structure rather than efficacy, the USSR didn't work, apple does). Everyone in the Borg is (supposed to be) identical, whereas Apple seems like a structure of lots of groups of often brilliant people working in seperate-but-equal subtrees, working under a (especially under Jobs) ideologically-inspired dictator from the top down. The way Apple are fairly reticent to document what they make partly informs the comparison.
  - eyelidlessness 6y ago
    I think their reticence to document is more a function of how long they’ve been able to get away with not doing it. Almost every engineering culture that finds that balance unfortunately embraces it.
_qulr 6y ago
> That's why Apple has the Developer and Public Beta releases for iOS/OSX so that external users can provide feedback. And on this occasion just like on many other they will take action if necessary. Except that Apple did not take action. Firewall developers such as Little Snitch did become aware of the issue during the beta releases and gave feedback to Apple, which Apple ignored and shipped it anyway to the public. https://blog.obdev.at/a-hole-in-the-wall/ https://blog.obdev.at/a-hole-in-the-wall/
- pvg 6y ago
  It's reasonable not to take action based on the feedback from a developer who sells an app-level firewall - it's neither a broad nor disinterested constituency. Big Sur's been out for less than two months - for a bigass company, it's decent turnaround.
  - _qulr 6y ago
    Who else would Apple take feedback from during the betas? Who else would even notice that there was a hole in the firewalls except the firewall developers?
    - pvg 6y ago
      The gigantic majority of users who are not firewall developers as well as the gigantic majority who never touches the betas both seem like sensible and important sources of feedback.
      - _qulr 6y ago
        > the gigantic majority who never touches the betas I was replying to a comment that literally said, "That's why Apple has the Developer and Public Beta releases for iOS/OSX", so maybe you should argue with that comment instead of with me.
- vulcan01 6y ago
  > Except that Apple did not take action. Look, I don't mean to criticise. But how do you know that Apple didn't start working on a fix when they were told about it? Apple doesn't exactly say when they start working on a fix for something, or else we would have known earlier.
skissane 6y ago
> Having worked at Apple and other big companies it's almost always Engineers and PMs making these decisions. I wonder what the backstory to the original decision was. Pure speculation: a "bug" was reported in which something was broken, and it turned out to be because a third party firewall was blocking access to some Apple-hosted service, and someone started working on "how to fix the bug", and the "bugfix" was to make sure third party software can't do that.
- breakfastduck 6y ago
  This sounds like a credible situation an engineer may come up with and implement without thinking through the reality of what they're doing.
rorykoehler 6y ago
IMO Apple move too fast and try do too much. They're always shipping half baked features and making bad decisions like this.

eyelidlessness 6y ago

> Having worked at Apple and other big companies it's almost always Engineers and PMs making these decisions. It's not like Tim Cook or Craig Federighi is running around demanding people add Apple apps to a firewall exclusion list. They have much bigger things to worry about. This more or less confirms my hunch. Thanks for inside perspective on it. That’s how literally every other org works but I know Apple got this reputation for having a very executive-micromanaged culture under both Jobs eras, it’s good to have a reminder that at the end of the day it’s not the borg.

mhh__ 6y ago
> it’s good to have a reminder that at the end of the day it’s not the borg. The impression I always got was more like a mid-to-late USSR than the Borg (in structure rather than efficacy, the USSR didn't work, apple does). Everyone in the Borg is (supposed to be) identical, whereas Apple seems like a structure of lots of groups of often brilliant people working in seperate-but-equal subtrees, working under a (especially under Jobs) ideologically-inspired dictator from the top down. The way Apple are fairly reticent to document what they make partly informs the comparison.
- eyelidlessness 6y ago
  I think their reticence to document is more a function of how long they’ve been able to get away with not doing it. Almost every engineering culture that finds that balance unfortunately embraces it.

_qulr 6y ago

> That's why Apple has the Developer and Public Beta releases for iOS/OSX so that external users can provide feedback. And on this occasion just like on many other they will take action if necessary. Except that Apple did not take action. Firewall developers such as Little Snitch did become aware of the issue during the beta releases and gave feedback to Apple, which Apple ignored and shipped it anyway to the public. https://blog.obdev.at/a-hole-in-the-wall/ https://blog.obdev.at/a-hole-in-the-wall/

pvg 6y ago
It's reasonable not to take action based on the feedback from a developer who sells an app-level firewall - it's neither a broad nor disinterested constituency. Big Sur's been out for less than two months - for a bigass company, it's decent turnaround.
- _qulr 6y ago
  Who else would Apple take feedback from during the betas? Who else would even notice that there was a hole in the firewalls except the firewall developers?
  - pvg 6y ago
    The gigantic majority of users who are not firewall developers as well as the gigantic majority who never touches the betas both seem like sensible and important sources of feedback.
    - _qulr 6y ago
      > the gigantic majority who never touches the betas I was replying to a comment that literally said, "That's why Apple has the Developer and Public Beta releases for iOS/OSX", so maybe you should argue with that comment instead of with me.
vulcan01 6y ago
> Except that Apple did not take action. Look, I don't mean to criticise. But how do you know that Apple didn't start working on a fix when they were told about it? Apple doesn't exactly say when they start working on a fix for something, or else we would have known earlier.

skissane 6y ago

> Having worked at Apple and other big companies it's almost always Engineers and PMs making these decisions. I wonder what the backstory to the original decision was. Pure speculation: a "bug" was reported in which something was broken, and it turned out to be because a third party firewall was blocking access to some Apple-hosted service, and someone started working on "how to fix the bug", and the "bugfix" was to make sure third party software can't do that.

breakfastduck 6y ago
This sounds like a credible situation an engineer may come up with and implement without thinking through the reality of what they're doing.

rorykoehler 6y ago

IMO Apple move too fast and try do too much. They're always shipping half baked features and making bad decisions like this.