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> According to a source with the Yang campaign, his revamped UBI plan would grant 500,000 New Yorkers in the greatest need an annual $2,000 - $5,000 through a p

> According to a source with the Yang campaign, his revamped UBI plan would grant 500,000 New Yorkers in the greatest need an annual $2,000 - $5,000 through a program administered by the city’s Human Resources Administration, the same city agency that administers other benefits programs. So it’s municipal-level welfare (means tested). Calling it scaled-back UBI is pretty disingenuous. Also, I wonder how well this works at the city level.

grecy 6y ago
No need to speculate, there are plenty of countries doing variations on UBI already, and they have been for many decades. We can learn from what they do. Australia gives around $1130 AUD / month to anyone that is low income, or doesn't have a job [1] (There is an additional $300/mo right now for COVID, but lets ignore that.) It is means tested, but the result is that anyone that doesn't have a job (for any reason at all - don't want one, quit, can't be bothered) gets that payment. You get more if you have kids, and you might get more for rent assistance too. It's been that way for decades, and Australia's economy has not magically been destroyed. Inflation is not through the roof, prices did not magically go up to just use up this free money. On the plus side, crime and violence are extremely low, and multiple Australian cities are in the top 100 most livable on the planet. [2] [1] https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/individuals/services/centrelink/jobseeker-payment/how-much-you-can-get https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/individuals/services/ce... [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/04/global-liveability-index-2019-most-liveable-cities-in-the-world.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/04/global-liveability-index-201...
- mandelbrotwurst 6y ago
  That’s all well and good, but if the payments don’t actually go to everyone, they aren’t “Universal”.
- umeshunni 6y ago
  Perhaps more comparable is the cash for every citizen programs that many oil rich gulf states run. E.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_Account_Program_(Saudi_Arabia) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_Account_Program_... And https://www.wellesley.edu/albright/about/blog/3926-downsides-universal-basic-income https://www.wellesley.edu/albright/about/blog/3926-downsides... Also, https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2016/10/03/saudi-government-budget-cuts-prove-basic-income-is-no-solution-to-slow-economic-growth/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydor...
- el_dev_hell 6y ago
  UBI and welfare (what we have in Australia) are very different. Andrew Yang has spoken about this better than I could off the top of my head, but to add a few things about our system (which does work very well from a global perspective): * The stigma (in non-covid times) toward "dole bludgers" is pretty significant. We're a pretty egalitarian society, but there's a fairly common distain towards welfare recipients. This would likely be reduced if everyone was receiving the payment. * You mentioned that recipients receive payments even if they quit or can't be bothered getting a job. That's kind of the situation with the current payment (JobSeeker), which was created last year when covid hit. The usual adult benefit (formally called Newstart allowance) had very strict "mutual obligations" and required you to apply for N number of jobs per fortnight otherwise your benefits were cut (https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/individuals/topics/mutual-obligation-requirements/29751 https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/individuals/topics/mutu...). Also, if you quit a job you would have a cooldown period (usually 8 weeks) before you would receive benefits (with exceptions for injuries, redundancy, etc). * Rent assistance is basically guaranteed. If you pay rent, you will get a portion of this covered. * Our welfare program also includes a pharmaceutical discount (almost all prescription meds are $6.60 for recipients). It's a really decent program overall, but it's not UBI.
  - grecy 6y ago
    Obviously welfare isn't identical to UBI, though in my opinion it has many of the same results. > * The stigma* Sure, there's some stigma, but that's irrelevant in terms of the economic/financial impact to society. > very strict "mutual obligations" It's easy enough to fill out job applications left hand, etc. For anyone that wants it, it is extremely easy and TONS of friends from University did it for over a decade.
    - danielheath 6y ago
      Anecdotally, the mutual obligations have ratcheted up quite substantially since I was at uni 10-15 years ago. There have been several scandals involving accredited "Employment Services Providers" mistreating applicants, most commonly around offering them unsuitable (dangerous, to themselves or others) work at a firm controlled by the ESP. Applicants can't refuse, or they'll lose their payment, and this is taken advantage of.
- KMag 6y ago
  Here in Hong Kong, some years, flat payments are made to every legal permanent resident. It's kind of UBI, with flat payments and no means testing, but it fluctuates a lot. When it's payment scheme time, my bank puts up posters near ATMs reminding people to go to the government website and register their accounts to receive the wire transfer. That being said, we have a very high wealth gap here. My understanding is that social programs are generally very lacking.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
bioinformatics 6y ago
Municipal, and not universal. So it's BI.
- markdown 6y ago
  MBI
- mhh__ 6y ago
  As long as the cut-off is fairly simple, I really think a BI (as you call it) is a good idea. This is from a UK perspective, but my opinion on this is partly practical (to avoid waste) and partly ethical as the ruling classes generally don't view poor people as being worthy of financial autonomy (They actually have more in common with socialists on this matter that they would be comfortable with). We've just seen recently a scandal where the government, rather than just giving people money ("Money can be exchanged for goods and services."), has paid some contractor to dole out - at potentially significant cost, although the figure seems to be wildly varying depending on whom you ask - some tins of beans and pasta. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55641740 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55641740
missedthecue 6y ago
Can someone explain to me why this wouldnt cause an influx of very unproductive people who would like a no strings attached $2-5k?
- ag56 6y ago
  Because moving to NYC from pretty much anywhere else would increase your annual cost of living by far more than $5,000. Net you’d lose.
  - Talanes 6y ago
    It'd make it a far more attractive move from here in SF, but even then it's a pretty mild incentive.
  - missedthecue 6y ago
    Bus tickets cost $5000?
    - gpm 6y ago
      Rent costs far more than $5000/year in nyc.
      - sigstoat 6y ago
        what about for folks who are already homeless?
        gpm 6y ago
        Do they qualify as residents in this scheme? Seems unlikely, if just because it's difficult to decide whether someone asking for xxxx dollars is part of nyc if they don't have a home. Seems likely because they are in the most in need. I am genuinely unsure.
      - missedthecue 6y ago
        I'm not talking about people who rent

grecy 6y ago

No need to speculate, there are plenty of countries doing variations on UBI already, and they have been for many decades. We can learn from what they do. Australia gives around $1130 AUD / month to anyone that is low income, or doesn't have a job [1] (There is an additional $300/mo right now for COVID, but lets ignore that.) It is means tested, but the result is that anyone that doesn't have a job (for any reason at all - don't want one, quit, can't be bothered) gets that payment. You get more if you have kids, and you might get more for rent assistance too. It's been that way for decades, and Australia's economy has not magically been destroyed. Inflation is not through the roof, prices did not magically go up to just use up this free money. On the plus side, crime and violence are extremely low, and multiple Australian cities are in the top 100 most livable on the planet. [2] [1] https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/individuals/services/centrelink/jobseeker-payment/how-much-you-can-get https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/individuals/services/ce... [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/04/global-liveability-index-2019-most-liveable-cities-in-the-world.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/04/global-liveability-index-201...

mandelbrotwurst 6y ago
That’s all well and good, but if the payments don’t actually go to everyone, they aren’t “Universal”.
umeshunni 6y ago
Perhaps more comparable is the cash for every citizen programs that many oil rich gulf states run. E.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_Account_Program_(Saudi_Arabia) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%27s_Account_Program_... And https://www.wellesley.edu/albright/about/blog/3926-downsides-universal-basic-income https://www.wellesley.edu/albright/about/blog/3926-downsides... Also, https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2016/10/03/saudi-government-budget-cuts-prove-basic-income-is-no-solution-to-slow-economic-growth/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jeffreydor...
el_dev_hell 6y ago
UBI and welfare (what we have in Australia) are very different. Andrew Yang has spoken about this better than I could off the top of my head, but to add a few things about our system (which does work very well from a global perspective): * The stigma (in non-covid times) toward "dole bludgers" is pretty significant. We're a pretty egalitarian society, but there's a fairly common distain towards welfare recipients. This would likely be reduced if everyone was receiving the payment. * You mentioned that recipients receive payments even if they quit or can't be bothered getting a job. That's kind of the situation with the current payment (JobSeeker), which was created last year when covid hit. The usual adult benefit (formally called Newstart allowance) had very strict "mutual obligations" and required you to apply for N number of jobs per fortnight otherwise your benefits were cut (https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/individuals/topics/mutual-obligation-requirements/29751 https://www.servicesaustralia.gov.au/individuals/topics/mutu...). Also, if you quit a job you would have a cooldown period (usually 8 weeks) before you would receive benefits (with exceptions for injuries, redundancy, etc). * Rent assistance is basically guaranteed. If you pay rent, you will get a portion of this covered. * Our welfare program also includes a pharmaceutical discount (almost all prescription meds are $6.60 for recipients). It's a really decent program overall, but it's not UBI.
- grecy 6y ago
  Obviously welfare isn't identical to UBI, though in my opinion it has many of the same results. > * The stigma* Sure, there's some stigma, but that's irrelevant in terms of the economic/financial impact to society. > very strict "mutual obligations" It's easy enough to fill out job applications left hand, etc. For anyone that wants it, it is extremely easy and TONS of friends from University did it for over a decade.
  - danielheath 6y ago
    Anecdotally, the mutual obligations have ratcheted up quite substantially since I was at uni 10-15 years ago. There have been several scandals involving accredited "Employment Services Providers" mistreating applicants, most commonly around offering them unsuitable (dangerous, to themselves or others) work at a firm controlled by the ESP. Applicants can't refuse, or they'll lose their payment, and this is taken advantage of.
KMag 6y ago
Here in Hong Kong, some years, flat payments are made to every legal permanent resident. It's kind of UBI, with flat payments and no means testing, but it fluctuates a lot. When it's payment scheme time, my bank puts up posters near ATMs reminding people to go to the government website and register their accounts to receive the wire transfer. That being said, we have a very high wealth gap here. My understanding is that social programs are generally very lacking.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

bioinformatics 6y ago

Municipal, and not universal. So it's BI.

markdown 6y ago
MBI
mhh__ 6y ago
As long as the cut-off is fairly simple, I really think a BI (as you call it) is a good idea. This is from a UK perspective, but my opinion on this is partly practical (to avoid waste) and partly ethical as the ruling classes generally don't view poor people as being worthy of financial autonomy (They actually have more in common with socialists on this matter that they would be comfortable with). We've just seen recently a scandal where the government, rather than just giving people money ("Money can be exchanged for goods and services."), has paid some contractor to dole out - at potentially significant cost, although the figure seems to be wildly varying depending on whom you ask - some tins of beans and pasta. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55641740 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55641740

missedthecue 6y ago

Can someone explain to me why this wouldnt cause an influx of very unproductive people who would like a no strings attached $2-5k?

ag56 6y ago
Because moving to NYC from pretty much anywhere else would increase your annual cost of living by far more than $5,000. Net you’d lose.
- Talanes 6y ago
  It'd make it a far more attractive move from here in SF, but even then it's a pretty mild incentive.
- missedthecue 6y ago
  Bus tickets cost $5000?
  - gpm 6y ago
    Rent costs far more than $5000/year in nyc.
    - sigstoat 6y ago
      what about for folks who are already homeless?
      - gpm 6y ago
        Do they qualify as residents in this scheme? Seems unlikely, if just because it's difficult to decide whether someone asking for xxxx dollars is part of nyc if they don't have a home. Seems likely because they are in the most in need. I am genuinely unsure.
    - missedthecue 6y ago
      I'm not talking about people who rent