6 ms·

You are taking a risk. The risk is that you assume your government will be able to provide you with a comfortable life even when you can no longer work. And whe

by xwdv 6y ago

You are taking a risk. The risk is that you assume your government will be able to provide you with a comfortable life even when you can no longer work. And when the time comes for your children to get higher education and retire themselves eventually you hope the government will also be there to step in. It works, until it doesn't. In America you can compensate yourself for this risk by simply getting a job where you are paid a higher salary than the average. Then you don't really care what happens with the social safety net, you've already hedged against it by saving and investing for yourself, and possibly becoming very rich. Personally I'd be stressed if I were in your position. Government welfare isn't some liquid asset. If you decide you want to go live in some other country with a higher standard of living, such as the United States, is your government going to give you $100k or more to go start a life there at the same standard of living you're used to? I doubt it. You'll have to start from scratch, little to no savings, no real credit history, and paying much more for things that were a lot cheaper back in your home country. And if you were to retire in the US, I have a dim view of your future if you have no savings for retirement. If you are already close to retirement and haven't saved anything, you simply will not be able to retire. Basically you're locked in to your home country, and have no realistic options for leaving unless you become richer. If the country goes to shit, so do you. This is not the case somewhere like America, where how well off you are is decoupled from how the country is doing as a whole. Government risk is eliminated, your cash flow and net worth is all that matters. That's much easier to understand and helps you sleep at night. Be careful.

pavlov 6y ago
I'm a European living in USA working for a FAANG. Frankly, my assessment is exactly the opposite from yours. United States is the country that's most likely to go to shit. All of us wealthy professionals here are sitting on a powder keg of inequality and delusional politics, and nobody will be decoupled from it when it blows up. I plan to stay for a few more years, then return to my safe North European home country with a solid stash of savings. My kids can go to good schools where teaching is in their native language. When they get older, they can go to free college if they're willing to put in the effort. When I retire, I won't need to worry about exhausting my savings because I've got a home fully paid and a sufficient baseline is guaranteed from the national pension system. There doesn't seem to by anything that would make me want to stay in America — perhaps the worst place on Earth to retire.
- xwdv 6y ago
  Inequality doesn’t really matter as much as people think. What inequality does is ensure that there will always be two markets of consumers: one that needs goods at low prices and one that can afford higher prices for luxury goods. As long as the lower price market exists, hoarding sufficient wealth guarantees you’ll be able to at least afford the minimum standard of living, allowing you to safely retire. If everyone was wealthy everything would be expensive and then no one would feel wealthy enough to retire.
  - benrbray 6y ago
    ...what about the people who can't "hoard sufficient wealth" because it's all been sucked from the market? ...what if "health care" is viewed as a luxury good as it is in the statse?
  - aprdm 6y ago
    lol. It doesn't matter much if you're not the one in the lower bracket.
  - pietrovismara 6y ago
    Yes, thank you for telling us that capitalism needs poverty to exist.
- rodgerd 6y ago
  This is why the actual billionaires - including and particularly the ones who setup ycombinator - such as sama and Peter Theil have bunkers outside the US that they plan to flee to (and in some cases did at the start of COVID) to avoid the mess that they've created in the US. The people cosplaying here by repeating the values that Peter et al want them to quake will be the ones left behind.
- nayaketo 6y ago
  How is your assessment opposite from OPs? Just like the OP argued, if the entirety of US goes down under, you still have option of moving most of your earnings to your safe North European homeland. Perfect example of income being "decoupled" from the government.
anoncake 6y ago
What you don't realize is that you rely on your government just as much as we do on ours. If it fails, it can't protect your property rights anymore and your net worth is just a theoretical number.
- Jommi 6y ago
  It's incredible to the lengths Americans go when their system is challenged.
- titanomachy 6y ago
  A developed country's government failing to the point that it can no longer guarantee property rights is pretty unusual. Running out of money to pay pensions is much more common, and it seems somewhat likely given the way demographics are headed.
  - Hamuko 6y ago
    A bunch of angry people storming the seat of the legislative branch sounds pretty unusual for a developed country as well.
onion2k 6y ago
In America you can compensate yourself for this risk by simply getting a job where you are paid a higher salary than the average. If everyone does that then it just drives the average salary up. In other words, the system can't survive unless there's a strata of people at the bottom who are below average and, by your definition, relying on a government that possibly won't help them. In Europe as most people rely on the government everyone has an incentive to vote for parties that won't fail those people.
- titanomachy 6y ago
  I've struggled with this a lot. Unfortunately, the question "what's the ideal way to run a society?" is a very different one from "where's the ideal place for me to go right now?". I'm not from America, but moving there as a high-paid, still-young software developer was a reasonable choice for me. I might advise others in my position to do the same. I'd be less likely to tell people "you should run your country more like America".
benrbray 6y ago
This "every man for himself / kicking down the ladder behind me" attitude is exactly the reason to leave America. If you slip through the cracks by no fault of your own (e.g. covid), you have no safety net to keep your life and finances from spinning out of control. > In America you can compensate yourself for this risk by simply getting a job where you are paid a higher salary than the average. Oh wow! If I want a more secure life, I'll just get a higher paying job. I didn't think of that before!
- unishark 6y ago
  > This "every man for himself / kicking down the ladder behind me" attitude is exactly the reason to leave America. The "ladder kicking" part misrepresents their point. I see nothing they said which would preclude another person from following their same path. As for getting a higher paying job, the problem isn't whether you thought about this clever plan, but whether you are able to actually implement it in you country.
ilikeerp 6y ago
I bet you've never left your own country for more than a week to visit Mexico.... you're all theory and it's all nonsense.
alkonaut 6y ago
You don’t need a lot of savings to move to the US. I could get a good job there tomorrow (I work for a US company already, there are often positions including relocation and US salaries offered). If I sold my house I could buy one in most parts of the US too. I’d still be eligible for my pension from here too.

by xwdv 6y ago

pavlov 6y ago

I'm a European living in USA working for a FAANG. Frankly, my assessment is exactly the opposite from yours. United States is the country that's most likely to go to shit. All of us wealthy professionals here are sitting on a powder keg of inequality and delusional politics, and nobody will be decoupled from it when it blows up. I plan to stay for a few more years, then return to my safe North European home country with a solid stash of savings. My kids can go to good schools where teaching is in their native language. When they get older, they can go to free college if they're willing to put in the effort. When I retire, I won't need to worry about exhausting my savings because I've got a home fully paid and a sufficient baseline is guaranteed from the national pension system. There doesn't seem to by anything that would make me want to stay in America — perhaps the worst place on Earth to retire.

xwdv 6y ago
Inequality doesn’t really matter as much as people think. What inequality does is ensure that there will always be two markets of consumers: one that needs goods at low prices and one that can afford higher prices for luxury goods. As long as the lower price market exists, hoarding sufficient wealth guarantees you’ll be able to at least afford the minimum standard of living, allowing you to safely retire. If everyone was wealthy everything would be expensive and then no one would feel wealthy enough to retire.
- benrbray 6y ago
  ...what about the people who can't "hoard sufficient wealth" because it's all been sucked from the market? ...what if "health care" is viewed as a luxury good as it is in the statse?
- aprdm 6y ago
  lol. It doesn't matter much if you're not the one in the lower bracket.
- pietrovismara 6y ago
  Yes, thank you for telling us that capitalism needs poverty to exist.
rodgerd 6y ago
This is why the actual billionaires - including and particularly the ones who setup ycombinator - such as sama and Peter Theil have bunkers outside the US that they plan to flee to (and in some cases did at the start of COVID) to avoid the mess that they've created in the US. The people cosplaying here by repeating the values that Peter et al want them to quake will be the ones left behind.
nayaketo 6y ago
How is your assessment opposite from OPs? Just like the OP argued, if the entirety of US goes down under, you still have option of moving most of your earnings to your safe North European homeland. Perfect example of income being "decoupled" from the government.

anoncake 6y ago

What you don't realize is that you rely on your government just as much as we do on ours. If it fails, it can't protect your property rights anymore and your net worth is just a theoretical number.

Jommi 6y ago
It's incredible to the lengths Americans go when their system is challenged.
titanomachy 6y ago
A developed country's government failing to the point that it can no longer guarantee property rights is pretty unusual. Running out of money to pay pensions is much more common, and it seems somewhat likely given the way demographics are headed.
- Hamuko 6y ago
  A bunch of angry people storming the seat of the legislative branch sounds pretty unusual for a developed country as well.

onion2k 6y ago

In America you can compensate yourself for this risk by simply getting a job where you are paid a higher salary than the average. If everyone does that then it just drives the average salary up. In other words, the system can't survive unless there's a strata of people at the bottom who are below average and, by your definition, relying on a government that possibly won't help them. In Europe as most people rely on the government everyone has an incentive to vote for parties that won't fail those people.

titanomachy 6y ago
I've struggled with this a lot. Unfortunately, the question "what's the ideal way to run a society?" is a very different one from "where's the ideal place for me to go right now?". I'm not from America, but moving there as a high-paid, still-young software developer was a reasonable choice for me. I might advise others in my position to do the same. I'd be less likely to tell people "you should run your country more like America".

benrbray 6y ago

This "every man for himself / kicking down the ladder behind me" attitude is exactly the reason to leave America. If you slip through the cracks by no fault of your own (e.g. covid), you have no safety net to keep your life and finances from spinning out of control. > In America you can compensate yourself for this risk by simply getting a job where you are paid a higher salary than the average. Oh wow! If I want a more secure life, I'll just get a higher paying job. I didn't think of that before!

unishark 6y ago
> This "every man for himself / kicking down the ladder behind me" attitude is exactly the reason to leave America. The "ladder kicking" part misrepresents their point. I see nothing they said which would preclude another person from following their same path. As for getting a higher paying job, the problem isn't whether you thought about this clever plan, but whether you are able to actually implement it in you country.

ilikeerp 6y ago

I bet you've never left your own country for more than a week to visit Mexico.... you're all theory and it's all nonsense.

alkonaut 6y ago

You don’t need a lot of savings to move to the US. I could get a good job there tomorrow (I work for a US company already, there are often positions including relocation and US salaries offered). If I sold my house I could buy one in most parts of the US too. I’d still be eligible for my pension from here too.