8 ms·

You guys are doing it again -- idealizing the other side of the fence as if everything was all rainbows and unicorns in Europe. In Germany and many European co

• chrisaycock 15y ago
  You guys are doing it again -- idealizing the other side of the fence as if everything was all rainbows and unicorns in Europe. I used to live in Britain. After having gone to doctor a few times there, I'd rather have the customer-pays model of America. I was just pointing-out that it's (obviously) expensive over here.
  • robotresearcher 15y ago
    If that doctor had told you you had cancer, your preference might be different.
  • mjw 15y ago
    You can have the 'customer pays' model in Britain too if you want it - just roll up to a BUPA (or some other private) hospital and whip out your wallet.
  • arethuza 15y ago
    And my entire accident prone family has had fantastically good services from the NHS on numerous occasions... So our anecdotes cancel out :-)
  • mahyarm 15y ago
    I was just talking to an elderly person who had a heart attack 2 months ago. Before insurance cost was around $200'000 and if she went with the more invasive option, it could of been $500'000. For one bloody heart attack.
  • vacri 15y ago
    The US and UK are both bad examples. Here in Aus we have universal healthcare and private - if you want to jump waiting lines or have carpet on the waiting room floor, pull out your wallet and go private. There are a few problems, but there is no perfect health system as there is always more demand than supply.
    • hessenwolf 15y ago
      Interestingly, on the European continent, carpet is considered a bit shit.
      • waqf 15y ago
        Your ideas intrigue me ... seriously, I'd like to know more about this. Which nationalities are you speaking for, and in which contexts? For example, I believe Americans think Brits are very odd for having fitted carpets in bathrooms.
• deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
• mapgrep 15y ago
  I really appreciate your reply and the global perspective! That said, I'm not sure about Germany being approximately as rough as the U.S.. * Retirement - Our benefit is well under half of yours. The _minimum_ German pension, the floor, after reform will be 67 percent of national average wage (cites below). In the U.S., the average social security benefit is $1,153, annualized to $13,863 or about 34 percent of the average national income of $40,711. So our _average_ govt. retirement benefit (34%) is about half of your _minimum_ retirement benefit (67%). In fact, the maximum U.S. benefit of $2,346 is just 69 percent of national income, i.e. the current German minimum (!) (it will go down to 67 percent under the current reform). [German data: http://www.economist.com/node/618334 http://www.economist.com/node/618334 ] [U.S. social security benefit data: http://www.aarp.org/work/social-security/info-07-2010/maximum_monthly_social_security_benefit.html http://www.aarp.org/work/social-security/info-07-2010/maximu... ][U.S. wage data: http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/AWI.html http://www.ssa.gov/oact/cola/AWI.html ] * Unemployment - (-edited thrice-) The average is 47 percent of wages in U.S. vs 60 or 67 percent in Germany depending on if you have kids. Germany is still more generous. [German data http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/9/54/29730499.PDF http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/9/54/29730499.PDF http://www.justlanded.com/english/Germany/Germany-Guide/Jobs/Unemployment-insurance http://www.justlanded.com/english/Germany/Germany-Guide/Jobs... ] [U.S. data http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3394 http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3394 ] If you are right about "housings costs + 500 per month" this is, indeed, be about in line with U.S. benefits which average $300 per week (~1300 per month); our housing payments average $684. Not sure how to reconcile that with the 60 percent figure from OECD and elsewhere.
  • wheels 15y ago
    What I meant on the German and US systems is that they're both pay-in-get-something out. Germans pay about double for social security, so it's not a huge surprise that the benefits are higher. My point was not that Germans do not get more benefits, but that's it's not a large factor in contrasting wages. (i.e. if American professionals put the money into a 401k that would go into the required German pension funding, then the benefits would probably work out to being roughly comparable). For unemployment the housing costs that are reimbursed are "reasonable" costs, not "whatever your costs are", i.e. they're capped per region. The 60% you're seeing there is for those who have paid for "Arbeitslosengeld I", which is only available to those who have been full-time employed and are terminated (though if you quit on your own, you're eligible after 3 months). Freelancers, recent grads, business owners, etc. are not eligible for "ALG I". There's also a time limit on how long you can receive it.
• david927 15y ago
  We're not idealizing: European take home less pay and pay more in taxes -- but get huge social benefits. If you're honestly trying to argue an equivalence in US and Europe in terms of such benefits, you're crazy. Europe is a big word as each country varies. That said... In Germany and many European countries, you pay for healthcare and it costs a lot But, from the studies I've seen, Europeans on average spend about half in terms of healthcare. New York and San Francisco, also have quite good public transit No, they simply have public transit -- it's not great by any means. You often have to supplement with taxi in both places. (The rates are high there because costs of living are very high in both places.) Unemployment compensation in most European countries is vastly better. Free university systems? That's nice. My point is that we know it's not all rainbows and unicorns in Europe but you can't argue that you don't get a whole lot for those taxes.
  • thomasgerbe 15y ago
    "No, they simply have public transit -- it's not great by any means. You often have to supplement with taxi in both places." Citation needed. 99.9% of the time I was lived in NY, I used public transit instead of taxis. London and France? Underground stops running close to one and so anytime I tried staying out late I needed to walk, take a night bus, or hail a cab (which is near impossible on a Friday night).
    • david927 15y ago
      I think you should more carefully choose your battles: It's really no contest. Bart closes at midnight and has four stops in the heart of SF. NY has an OK metro but if you want to go cross-town, better just walk. I've spent time in NYC and lived in SF, Zurich, Berlin, Prague and London. Europe destroys on this topic. A huge percentage of people in Europe, like myself, don't own cars simply because we don't have to.
      • thomasgerbe 15y ago
        We'll have to agree to disagree. Saying it's no contest is a huge exaggeration. I won't argue that BART/MUNI is better than other transit systems, but I still get around without a car. That said, the fact that transit closes in London and Paris while New York doesn't is a major advantage. It's actually precisely the reason why I have been able to not take a taxi or have to walk home in the early morning. And in NYC, a lot of people don't own cars because they don't have to either.
• artmageddon 15y ago
  "Americans also have a weird fetish that you don't find other places about buying homes in their 20s." This is fueled by the social taboo of living at home with your parents/family and the availability of mortgages.
  • camiller 15y ago
    And the fact that at the end of 20 years of paying a mortgage I own a piece of property while at the end of 20 years of paying rent I own nothing.
    • gcb 15y ago
      and now you own a place with one bedroom, that can be sold for 2/3 (if you are lucky) of the price you paid in full for the mortage. if you spent the same in rent, you would have lived in a 2-3 bedroom for 20 years, moving every time you changed jobs 20yrs is a LOT of time to be living in the same place you can afford downpayment when you are 20yr old. and a LOT of time to work/study on the same area
      • camiller 15y ago
        Well, it's a three bedroom, 2 1/2 bath with a two car garage. I've been in it since '93 Just after I turned 27. I'm the first owner. Original as built price ~$85,000. I'm not on the either coast and property prices were, and still are, a lot lower here. Last appraised value ~$122,000 (appraised 5 years ago), and similar sized homes in the same neighborhood are currently going for ~$135,000+. I'm in a nice neighborhood with relativly low crime compared to other parts of the city. In the intervening 18 years I have changed jobs once and stayed in the same city, and the new job is closer to home. I did refinance once to shave 2% off my interest rate so it will be another 7 years till it's paid off. Yes, mortgage interest does add up, but when you are renting an apartment you are basically paying the landlords mortgage interest anyway. If I did need to sell to move for a job I'd be able to roll the proceeds into the new home and have a much smaller, shorter mortgage to begin with. If I had rented for the same time period I would not have any built up equity. It would hurt to sell though, this house has seen me get married and gain two children. There are a lot of memories here.
• davidw 15y ago
  > You guys are doing it again Comparing apples and oranges, or rather, the ecosystems that produce apple trees vs the right ecosystem for growing oranges? These discussions just go around and around. I vote that we ban them in favor of people who want to know what it's like in Europe vs the US buying those of us who have spent significant (more than 2 years) on the other side a drink, while they listen to our anecdotes.
• dennisgorelik 15y ago
  Cost of living in Europe is higher than in the US. Consider cost of gasoline and real estate. It's just that Europeans have lower income, so they do not buy things that wealthier Americans do. Europeans on average are driving smaller and older cars, they drive less. Other things you mentioned - Europeans are buying less gadgets. Who's making the right choice is hard to say. Does larger house worth more than long vacation? The answer depends on who you ask.
  • cdavid 15y ago
    Generalizations like Europe is more expensive than the US make no sense. Where in Europe, where in the US ? There is quite a difference between cost of living in London, Paris and Munich already, and the cost of living in the Bay Area is not the same as Austin. Even within a given country, the cost of living is very spread out (London and Paris are extremely expensive compared to the average of their respective country for example).
    • dennisgorelik 15y ago
      Nothing stops you from comparing Austin, TX to Munich, Germany and San Francisco vs London/Paris.
      • cdavid 15y ago
        Indeed. The point being that comparing cities is much more relevant than countries. It has also the nice property to avoid too much country-bias.
    • nasmorn 15y ago
      Funny, I (as an Austrian) am used to hearing that Munich is one of the most expensive cities in Germany.
• cdavid 15y ago
  The employee caries the cost of insurance, tax, etc... in every country: that's the tax incidence concept (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_incidence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_incidence). The fact that from an administrative POV, some part is split between the employee and employer is just that: an administrative convention, but don't be fooled by it.
• krolley 15y ago
  I don't know where people are getting the idea that Europe pays software developers $3000-$4000 per month. Maybe in eastern Europe, but in Switzerland, you can expect double that amount.. after tax.
  • GFischer 15y ago
    Well, from European software developers actually :) . I guess it depends on your definition of software developer, but my sister's Austrian boyfriend (a software engineer) makes less than U$ 4.000, and so do some of my Magic:the Gathering acquaintances. Granted, they're in their 20s and will probably command higher wages later on (I hope :) ), but I do know of a guy in his 40s making less than that in Vienna as well (working for IBM)