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Admittedly I don't know much about work relations in Europe but are SW engineers unionized there? A union could 1.)allow workers to aggressively collectively b

Admittedly I don't know much about work relations in Europe but are SW engineers unionized there? A union could 1.)allow workers to aggressively collectively bargain for more money 2.)add additional requirements (licensure, education requirements, etc) to keep down the supply of labor. I'm not saying such a move would be good for everyone, but it could be good for those who become members of the union.

jonex 6y ago
In Sweden a significant portion of tech workers are unionized. It doesn't work well for creating leverage in term of wages though. If anything, the impression I got at my last job where I was in the union was that the union negotiations mostly created an excuse for not increasing individual pay. "Sure, you perform really great and all, but if we give you more we'll have to reduce pay for someone else based on the agreed upon average increase." For high-in-demand jobs such as SWE, the leverage of "if you don't maintain competitive pay I'll probably start look around for other work" is much more effective than union negotiations when no one is paid bad enough that they'd be willing to go on strike to get better terms. Education is good and free enough that the supply of qualified labor would be hard to keep down without governmental intervention.
- foogazi 6y ago
  >”Sure, you perform really great and all, but if we give you more we'll have to reduce pay for someone else based on the agreed upon average increase." You do give up some agency by going through intermediaries. Good thing you are not forced to stay
  - xur17 6y ago
    One of the reasons I personally don't want tech industry unions.
soinus 6y ago
If anything, I've seen union doing exactly the opposite, at least in Germany for senior level jobs. Coming to work for a big company the only chance of getting a higher salary is to be above the union negotiated margin. The companies generally don't really want you to get there and it can be really tough to negotiate this. You are really well protected and basically unfirable in union but there is a top margin to your salary. If outside the margin of union salaries you're on your own with your own responsibilities. I really did not like working on a company that had a union as I've seen lots of people with zero motivation and nothing that a company could do about it.
- elindbe3 6y ago
  Interesting. I've always valued higher pay over other benefits and I'd like to retire early so job security doesn't matter much. I guess I would prefer being non-union too.
nackerhewz 6y ago
Worked in several highly unionized companies. You get a lot of devs with 20+ years of experience with very respectable wages (in European terms) who are not able to implement fizz buzz by themselves within any reasonable timeframe. The younger devs, although considerably more skilled due to more recent education, aren't encouraged and mostly lack ambition, all they have to do (and can do) to make a good income is to hang around until they have 20+ years of experience.

jonex 6y ago

In Sweden a significant portion of tech workers are unionized. It doesn't work well for creating leverage in term of wages though. If anything, the impression I got at my last job where I was in the union was that the union negotiations mostly created an excuse for not increasing individual pay. "Sure, you perform really great and all, but if we give you more we'll have to reduce pay for someone else based on the agreed upon average increase." For high-in-demand jobs such as SWE, the leverage of "if you don't maintain competitive pay I'll probably start look around for other work" is much more effective than union negotiations when no one is paid bad enough that they'd be willing to go on strike to get better terms. Education is good and free enough that the supply of qualified labor would be hard to keep down without governmental intervention.

foogazi 6y ago
>”Sure, you perform really great and all, but if we give you more we'll have to reduce pay for someone else based on the agreed upon average increase." You do give up some agency by going through intermediaries. Good thing you are not forced to stay
- xur17 6y ago
  One of the reasons I personally don't want tech industry unions.

soinus 6y ago

If anything, I've seen union doing exactly the opposite, at least in Germany for senior level jobs. Coming to work for a big company the only chance of getting a higher salary is to be above the union negotiated margin. The companies generally don't really want you to get there and it can be really tough to negotiate this. You are really well protected and basically unfirable in union but there is a top margin to your salary. If outside the margin of union salaries you're on your own with your own responsibilities. I really did not like working on a company that had a union as I've seen lots of people with zero motivation and nothing that a company could do about it.

elindbe3 6y ago
Interesting. I've always valued higher pay over other benefits and I'd like to retire early so job security doesn't matter much. I guess I would prefer being non-union too.

nackerhewz 6y ago

Worked in several highly unionized companies. You get a lot of devs with 20+ years of experience with very respectable wages (in European terms) who are not able to implement fizz buzz by themselves within any reasonable timeframe. The younger devs, although considerably more skilled due to more recent education, aren't encouraged and mostly lack ambition, all they have to do (and can do) to make a good income is to hang around until they have 20+ years of experience.