5 ms·

I'm confused. Wireguard and Jason/zx2c4 are not a non-profit, nor do they advertise as one. Why are you making it sound like he is doing something nefarious? T

I'm confused. Wireguard and Jason/zx2c4 are not a non-profit, nor do they advertise as one. Why are you making it sound like he is doing something nefarious? The argument for the ruling being bad is: the app links to the wireguard webpage (not within the app) which contains information on how to donate. That's like if in my app, I linked to my twitter profile, and my twitter profile contained a link to donate to me. It shouldn't be a problem.

vaduz 6y ago
If you are a business, wth a few defined exceptions ("reader", multiplatform, _physical merchandise from outside of the platform_ etc.), you accept payments through Apple Pay, don't direct people to your website to to send you money regardless how you decide to call it and pay Apple the cut they desire. FOSS developers are still businesses, not charities, much as we like to pretend otherwise - and "tips", "donations", "patronage" and similar verbiage does not change that. If you are an actual nonprofit, you get to ask for donations both via app and your website and have Apple not take the cut. Don't like it - don't deploy on the platfrom, but if you persist you will soon run out of platforms. Note that particular point has also caused WireGuard to be delisted from Google's Play Store before so it should not come as a suprise to anyone (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21268389 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21268389). Note that some of those distinctions are legal - where I am, I need to know if I am gifting you money or donating to a nonprofit to report it on the tax record (and I certainly need to know if I were to get my own limited company to "donate"), as going above certain limits makes _me_ liable for tax on gifts as well, including reporting who the recipient is. "I sent that money to a random functional email PayPal@zx2c4.com I can't say much about" does not cut it. Yes, Jason might be at the other end of it - but as is, it fails the smell test compared to other FOSS projects. Simple as that. Can we go back to discussing why Apple is bad due to their ever changing APIs, general disregard for backwards compatibility and for that matter general compatibility with anything else and not one of the few things in the whole process that make sense? Or, for that matter, why Google effectively making GMS and locked bootloader a requirement for corporate and/or finance apps is ensuring that in many areas the existence of unlocked devices/alternative AOSP distributions is and will remain a fig leaf purely there to avoid being considered the one true dominant player?
- derefr 6y ago
  > FOSS developers are still businesses, not charities I mean, maybe in a technical sense? But the ones who publish these apps are usually just "non-profits run by single individuals who can't afford all the bureaucracy required to run a non-profit." Keep in mind that FOSS apps like WireGuard are 1. entirely free, 2. with no ads, restrictions, or nags to donate. There's nothing you get from the app, or from the developer, by sending them a "monetary gift." Other than the fact that you can't claim it on your taxes, they're effectively working for a non-profit that produces this software. If you consider someone offering a link to send them "monetary gifts" to pay their own salary to allow them to continue to work on an app they don't charge for, "a business" — I'd hate to see what you call a church, or a library, or PBS.
  - vaduz 6y ago
    PBS (and BBC in the UK, and other equivalents) enjoys extra privileges to accept tax-free funding in exchange for the mandate or promise to stay non-commercial and not give priority to specific donors' requests. [0] Libraries, should they accept donations to operate (or public funding!), accept some restrictions as well. There are commercial libraries as well, incidentally, which don't get to accept donations, but are funded by some associated commercial business - my local bookstore had one before the current pandemic has started, though it is unknown if they will continue to have one by the time it ends. Churches are "complicated" - and less said about the funding the better, especially in context of the US. Suffice to say I very much prefer the German model - which happens to come with quite stringent accountability requirements. I have no problem sending money in appreciation for the work with no expectation of any return on it (not even a tax deduction). I do not have a problem with someone making a profit on those "gifts" - I wish them all the best, in fact. I do, however, firmly believe that you can't have your cake and eat it too: you receive the ability to accept donations in a way where you enjoy various exemptions (in this context, from Apple/Google delisting you or taking their cut) in exchange for actually going through that bureaucratic rigmarole to get registered. It's not a $DEITY-given FOSS right. Side note - as I wrote before, my local tax office would like to know who the money is going to, to either try to get their pound of flesh (cynical and realistic view) or to identify the money going to 'bad actors' (take your usual terrorists/criminals/think of the children BS excuse the politicians always make up to pass the relevant law), doubly so when the money is sent internationally - if I wanted to actually send an one-off gift to Jason/zx2c4, I can only assume he is not in my country. [0] https://www.pbs.org/about/producing-pbs/funding-standards/ https://www.pbs.org/about/producing-pbs/funding-standards/

vaduz 6y ago

If you are a business, wth a few defined exceptions ("reader", multiplatform, _physical merchandise from outside of the platform_ etc.), you accept payments through Apple Pay, don't direct people to your website to to send you money regardless how you decide to call it and pay Apple the cut they desire. FOSS developers are still businesses, not charities, much as we like to pretend otherwise - and "tips", "donations", "patronage" and similar verbiage does not change that. If you are an actual nonprofit, you get to ask for donations both via app and your website and have Apple not take the cut. Don't like it - don't deploy on the platfrom, but if you persist you will soon run out of platforms. Note that particular point has also caused WireGuard to be delisted from Google's Play Store before so it should not come as a suprise to anyone (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21268389 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21268389). Note that some of those distinctions are legal - where I am, I need to know if I am gifting you money or donating to a nonprofit to report it on the tax record (and I certainly need to know if I were to get my own limited company to "donate"), as going above certain limits makes _me_ liable for tax on gifts as well, including reporting who the recipient is. "I sent that money to a random functional email PayPal@zx2c4.com I can't say much about" does not cut it. Yes, Jason might be at the other end of it - but as is, it fails the smell test compared to other FOSS projects. Simple as that. Can we go back to discussing why Apple is bad due to their ever changing APIs, general disregard for backwards compatibility and for that matter general compatibility with anything else and not one of the few things in the whole process that make sense? Or, for that matter, why Google effectively making GMS and locked bootloader a requirement for corporate and/or finance apps is ensuring that in many areas the existence of unlocked devices/alternative AOSP distributions is and will remain a fig leaf purely there to avoid being considered the one true dominant player?

derefr 6y ago
> FOSS developers are still businesses, not charities I mean, maybe in a technical sense? But the ones who publish these apps are usually just "non-profits run by single individuals who can't afford all the bureaucracy required to run a non-profit." Keep in mind that FOSS apps like WireGuard are 1. entirely free, 2. with no ads, restrictions, or nags to donate. There's nothing you get from the app, or from the developer, by sending them a "monetary gift." Other than the fact that you can't claim it on your taxes, they're effectively working for a non-profit that produces this software. If you consider someone offering a link to send them "monetary gifts" to pay their own salary to allow them to continue to work on an app they don't charge for, "a business" — I'd hate to see what you call a church, or a library, or PBS.
- vaduz 6y ago
  PBS (and BBC in the UK, and other equivalents) enjoys extra privileges to accept tax-free funding in exchange for the mandate or promise to stay non-commercial and not give priority to specific donors' requests. [0] Libraries, should they accept donations to operate (or public funding!), accept some restrictions as well. There are commercial libraries as well, incidentally, which don't get to accept donations, but are funded by some associated commercial business - my local bookstore had one before the current pandemic has started, though it is unknown if they will continue to have one by the time it ends. Churches are "complicated" - and less said about the funding the better, especially in context of the US. Suffice to say I very much prefer the German model - which happens to come with quite stringent accountability requirements. I have no problem sending money in appreciation for the work with no expectation of any return on it (not even a tax deduction). I do not have a problem with someone making a profit on those "gifts" - I wish them all the best, in fact. I do, however, firmly believe that you can't have your cake and eat it too: you receive the ability to accept donations in a way where you enjoy various exemptions (in this context, from Apple/Google delisting you or taking their cut) in exchange for actually going through that bureaucratic rigmarole to get registered. It's not a $DEITY-given FOSS right. Side note - as I wrote before, my local tax office would like to know who the money is going to, to either try to get their pound of flesh (cynical and realistic view) or to identify the money going to 'bad actors' (take your usual terrorists/criminals/think of the children BS excuse the politicians always make up to pass the relevant law), doubly so when the money is sent internationally - if I wanted to actually send an one-off gift to Jason/zx2c4, I can only assume he is not in my country. [0] https://www.pbs.org/about/producing-pbs/funding-standards/ https://www.pbs.org/about/producing-pbs/funding-standards/