7 ms·
Do you mean a particular part of Europe? I only ask because there are more factors than salary. I have friends who have moved to work in France, Norway, and Ger
by trcollinson 6y ago
Do you mean a particular part of Europe? I only ask because there are more factors than salary. I have friends who have moved to work in France, Norway, and Germany. They do make markedly less than I do on my US salary. However, they also get:
* Substantially more actual vacation time
* Substantially cheaper and yet similar health, dental, and vision coverage
* Less risk/stress associated with job security
* A very similar job market
I don't imagine this is the same in every country in the EU, just as technical job markets are different in the US. But working in the US Tech Sector isn't the panacea of work related issues.
- Jyaif 6y agoIn 3 years in the US you earn significantly more than in 5 years in France, so the vacation and health coverage arguments do not hold, unless you have an expensive illness (>30k$ per year). The job security on the other hand is very real, so if you want to coast at your job, europe is the way to go.
- ergocoder 6y agoThere is absolutely no way to get 500k/year from being just an engineer in Europe. I recall the React creator's base salary is 100k/year in London, and he works at Facebook.
- ingvul 6y agoThe average salary for a Software Engineer is $107K per year in United States. The average salary for a Software Engineer is $66K per year in Germany (~61% less). Source: indeed and payscale. I always find a bit funny when US devs in HN talk about getting salaries above $200K/year... when the average US dev gets half of that. (I find it funny because everybody here thinks we are above the average dev level and can get a job at Facebook/Google/Amazon/etc... which is statistically incorrect).
- thecleaner 6y agoWrong math. 61 percent of the US average. Not 61 percent less.
- smabie 6y agoWho says everyone here can't get a job paying 300k or whatever? Why is that statistically incorrect? Moreover, median != mean due to lefthand skew of the salary distribution of developers. Also probably excess kurtosis as well.
- sdevonoes 6y agoI guess they mean that: - number of software engineers in the US: X - number of software engineers in HN: Y - number of software engineers working for FAANG-like companies: N Where X >>>> Y >> N. So, yes, I also think that everyone here can't get a job paying 300K or higher not because we are not skilled enough but by simple math.
- jldugger 6y agoWell, IDK where I fit on the skill curve but... my total comp is personally well above that line. There's definitely a bi-modal effect with tech companies issuing RSUs that appreciate dramatically vs. random insurance company or telco.
- bcrosby95 6y ago> RSUs that appreciate dramatically Well, yeah, luck certainly can factor in. There was a year I made around 1.35 million in total comp due to luck like this. Nowadays I mostly make around 150k.
- ergocoder 6y agoIt feels more like you choose the job you like because you are already rich. I'm sure you can join one of the FAANGs and get, at least, $300k/year easily. If I have a few millions in my bank, I'd definitely join an interesting startup with no regard to compensation. 1.3m/year definitely has some luck involved. 500k/year is probably less luck. Just joined one of the hot tech companies and stay for 4 years. You have to be unlucky to not get to 500k/year.
- cmdshiftf4 6y ago$100k or £100k?
- ergocoder 6y ago£100k but that's like $130K USD which is a new grad engineer at, say, Twitter.
- cmarschner 6y agoIt is absolutely possible at FAANG companies (eg partner level at MS, principal level at G) and other publicly traded (US) companies or startups. Most of it is in stock.
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- ojbyrne 6y agoI would guess that his total compensation is probably 2-5x that.
- slap 6y agoFor reference, Dan Abramov's tweet regarding his salary in London : https://twitter.com/dan_abramov/status/1228454264915271683 https://twitter.com/dan_abramov/status/1228454264915271683
- quantumofalpha 6y ago> There is absolutely no way to get 500k/year from being just an engineer in Europe. Proprietary trading shops in London at the top end or L6+ at Google Zurich can pay that in total comp. > I recall the React creator's base salary is 100k/year in London, and he works at Facebook. And what about stocks? There should be at least another 100k in them. Facebook is a publicly tradable company, its RSUs are as good as cash, unlike startup paper money.
- ergocoder 6y agoSure, but the base salary for the React creator shouldn't be that low. That's like a new grad engineer at twitter if we simply compare base salary.
- euengtaway50 6y agoThat's 100k pounds, not dollars, and he's making more in RSUs. I also imagine he's an E5, because E6 salaries in London are higher than that. To be honest, given how Facebook works, all the work he does in React/Redux is probably hindering him in terms of getting promotions.
- ergocoder 6y ago$100k pounds ($130k) is still too low for the React creator. When I was a new grad 8 years ago, my base salary was $120k already. Unless he got a special deal, for an IC, the stock is proportional to the base salary. If your base salary is low, your stock will also be low.
- quantumofalpha 6y agoWhy the focus on base salary alone? Total (liquid) compensation is what matters, as the high paying places tend to be either equity (FAANGs) or bonus (finance) heavy. And 200k+ GBP TC is very good pay for UK market, probably 99th percentile
- ingvul 6y ago> In 3 years in the US you earn significantly more than in 5 years in France, so the vacation and health coverage arguments do not hold, unless you have an expensive illness (>30k$ per year). Care to elaborate? Especially the part about vacation. Do you mean that US developers will retire early than their European counterparts because they are earning more in average and by doing so will enjoy more free time? I'd rather prefer to enjoy my free time when I'm in my 20s and 30s than when I'm in my 40s, 50s, etc. The part about the health coverage: well, that's the thing, you never know if you'll deal with expensive or rare illness... so the European way of health coverage is worth it.
- novok 6y agoIn the US as a software developer you can and do get more vacation than the US norm, so keep that in mind.
- trcollinson 6y agoI make pretty good money as a consultant. Last year I had 180 hours of saved vacation time (4.5 weeks). I gave up 115.5 hours of that on January 1 because I didn't use it. I expect I will lose a similar amount on next January 1st. I did get 6 federal holidays off. I used a bit of vacation to also take the day after Thanksgiving, the day before Christmas, and New Year's Eve off. I paid $8400 in insurance premiums for my insurance. I also added $5200 in pretax to my HSA account which I used. I paid about 30% to taxes. I'm not complaining. I'd just like to point out that my high salary (which is not > $200,000) comes with some costs.
- iso1631 6y ago$200k is £146k I've seen mid-level tech jobs in London banks for £146k which come with 34 days off including state holidays like new years day, christmas, etc £146k for a full time contractor on 226 days a year isn't that much at all - £650 a day, which is in the "Senior developer" range [0] With 30% tax in the US and the cost of health insurance, that would be $68,400 For a staff employee on £146k (which is quite achievable in finance), taxes would be 39.5%, or $79k in tax [1] (there's also local property tax, but that's in the ballpark £1k-3k a year depending on the size of your house). Tax could be potentially lower as a contractor if you're clever about distributing your income, but I know they've been clamping down on some avoidance schemes. No idea what a HSA account is, I guess some form of pension plan? That tends to come off pre-tax. [0] https://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/contracts/uk/senior%20ui%20developer.do https://www.itjobswatch.co.uk/contracts/uk/senior%20ui%20dev... [1] https://listentotaxman.com/146000 https://listentotaxman.com/146000
- blunte 6y agoLondon is hugely expensive, so tech salaries should be higher there to attract workers. Also, finance generally pays better than other industries (although banking in Netherlands pays typically low-average); but trading and investment companies pay above average.
- iso1631 6y agoMedian wage pre-tax in London is £736 a week, or £38k a year. It can't be that expensive if half the people live on that. Median rent for a 2 bed in London is $1976 a month Average rent for a 2 bed in San Francisco is $3772 a month [0] https://www.london.gov.uk/what-we-do/housing-and-land/improving-private-rented-sector/london-rents-map https://www.london.gov.uk/what-we-do/housing-and-land/improv... [1] https://www.rentjungle.com/average-rent-in-san-francisco-rent-trends https://www.rentjungle.com/average-rent-in-san-francisco-ren...
- refurb 6y agoObviously it’s a personal choice as to what’s important, but the salary difference between the US and EU is still larger than any of the financial benefits to being in the EU. Getting 6 weeks of vacation instead of 3? I’d still rather take the extra $150k. Having to shell out $15k for healthcare each year? I’d still take the extra $150k.
- trcollinson 6y agoI'm pretty much at the top end of the salary range where I live. I don't make an extra $150,000. I make a sizable amount. But outside of a few niche places and a few niche companies in those places, people aren't making an extra $150,000 in the US.
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- bashwizard 6y agoThe vast majority of SWE in the US doesn't even make $150k/year so yeah, good luck with that $150k extra. Last time I checked the average salary for SWE in the US was roughly $110k.
- marcinzm 6y ago>* Substantially more actual vacation time This depends on the company, last startup I worked at gave me around 6 weeks of vacation per year not counting holidays. Of course I got paid less than FAANG but still better than Europe even without the equity. >* Substantially cheaper and yet similar health, dental, and vision coverage I have heard a lot of people in Europe (UK and Germany) complain about issues with getting health coverage for non life threatening issues unless they also had private insurance. No idea how many companies pay for that in Europe. >* Less risk/stress associated with job security My bank account is my job security. I don't think I ever was worried about job loss after a few years of building up savings.
- trcollinson 6y agoI guess my point on vacation is more around the culture of using it. As a senior level engineer/architect with maybe a small team leading role, when was the last time you took a solid 2 week off without anyone calling you for work? Heck, look at the number of unlimited PTO companies out there where employees never take a day. Just as an example. The experience my friends have in the EU seems to be pretty good over all with healthcare. The US healthcare system give fantastic results at a phenomenal and often strange price. It's a trade-off I'm sure. I agree that having savings helps. And I have quite a bit of savings. But I still wouldn't feel comfortable being laid off . Over all I'm here in the US and I love it. But I'm pointing out that there is give and take to everywhere. Also everyone keeps talking about working for FAANG but.... The vast majority of US engineers don't work for them.
- sokoloff 6y agoI suspect a lot of us just got back from two weeks off. Dec 19 though Jan 3 (inclusive) for me.
- marcinzm 6y agoThe VP of Eng at my current job routinely takes a week off where he is utterly unreachable (I believe he literally went to amish country last time). The same applies to the rest of the engineering team. It's been the same at my previous two companies as well. No, it's not the norm at companies but there's plenty where that's the case. In my experience, the US is a place where little is given to you but you can get a lot. But you cannot take anything for granted. If you value vacation then you need to grill potential employers on that point and be willing to take a job that pays less. Most people value money so if you value something different you need to be proactive about getting it.