3 ms·

> "Having a link to an external web page to receive donations [by a registered charity or a non-profit] is not considered a violation on the App Store" Which e

by vaduz 6y ago

> "Having a link to an external web page to receive donations [by a registered charity or a non-profit] is not considered a violation on the App Store" Which e.g. "PayPal@zx2c4.com" is not, clearly. The words you are missing are important. One of the reasons why I do not gift money to WireGuard developer(s) is that they have taken the steps to obscure where and to whom the money is going, which is in and of itself fishy. Just labelling something as 'donation' does not make it so. [Edit: line breaks]

dessant 6y ago
Only nonprofits are allowed to use in-app purchases on the App Store, while other apps must use Safari for fundraisers, read the guidelines in their entirety. > One of the reasons why I do not gift money to WireGuard developer(s) is that they have taken the steps to obscure where and to whom the money is going, which is in and of itself fishy. Just labelling something as 'donation' does not make it so. Your remark about WireGuard developers being fishy and obscuring where the money goes is ridiculous, and the way you framed it, just... wow.
- vaduz 6y ago
  I actually read them, and they also happen to be quoted upthread. 3.2 Other Business Model Issues [list is not exhaustive] 3.2.1 Acceptable (vi) Approved nonprofits may fundraise directly within their own apps or third-party apps, provided those fundraising campaigns adhere to all App Review Guidelines and offer Apple Pay support. These apps must disclose how the funds will be used, abide by all required local and federal laws, and ensure appropriate tax receipts are available to donors. Additional information shall be provided to App Review upon request. Nonprofit platforms that connect donors to other nonprofits must ensure that every nonprofit listed in the app has also gone through the nonprofit approval process. Learn more about becoming an approved nonprofit. 3.2.2 Unacceptable (iv) Unless you are an approved nonprofit or otherwise permitted under Section 3.2.1 (vi) above, collecting funds within the app for charities and fundraisers. Apps that seek to raise money for such causes must be free on the App Store and may only collect funds outside of the app, such as via Safari or SMS. It would appear that the current understanding is that if you are not a nonprofit, you don't fundraise within the app nor do you provide a link where you can transfer funds. If you are a nonprofit, you can register through the nonprofit program to use Apple Pay (which comes with actual checks of the status). This matches the intent every other point regarding payments, where soliticing money from within the app, even by way of link, is generally prohibited unless specifically allowed under one of the small list of exceptions. Remember when "reader" apps also had to remove links to purchase individual items and replaced it with, at best, "visit our website"? Same intent, same result. As for fishiness, compare these examples: * Signal Technology Foundation is a registered nonprofit foundation, I can check if the money is going to development of Signal (it is). They even do it right by providing the EIN so it is trivial to check. * Mozilla Foundation is a registered nonprofit foundation, I can check if the money is going to the development of the browser (it is not). * WireGuard developers decided it is important for them to keep the information where their business is located private (this is what I am referring to as fishy: I would challenge you to find where that particular "Edge Security" firm is actually operating, as a company, or what zx2c4.com is beside a name that Jason used to tag some files and host a domain, and both are used as "this project is from") and to keep the profits. See the difference? Two are genuine nonprofits entitled to donations, one is a business disguised as one (how much money that business makes is immaterial, it could be $1, it could be millions - I sincerely wish them the latter). Every developer has to make a living somehow - or at least recoup some costs, for FOSS projects - but this is not the way to go about it if you want to claim moral high ground over Apple.
  - xyzzy_plugh 6y ago
    I'm confused. Wireguard and Jason/zx2c4 are not a non-profit, nor do they advertise as one. Why are you making it sound like he is doing something nefarious? The argument for the ruling being bad is: the app links to the wireguard webpage (not within the app) which contains information on how to donate. That's like if in my app, I linked to my twitter profile, and my twitter profile contained a link to donate to me. It shouldn't be a problem.
    - vaduz 6y ago
      If you are a business, wth a few defined exceptions ("reader", multiplatform, _physical merchandise from outside of the platform_ etc.), you accept payments through Apple Pay, don't direct people to your website to to send you money regardless how you decide to call it and pay Apple the cut they desire. FOSS developers are still businesses, not charities, much as we like to pretend otherwise - and "tips", "donations", "patronage" and similar verbiage does not change that. If you are an actual nonprofit, you get to ask for donations both via app and your website and have Apple not take the cut. Don't like it - don't deploy on the platfrom, but if you persist you will soon run out of platforms. Note that particular point has also caused WireGuard to be delisted from Google's Play Store before so it should not come as a suprise to anyone (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21268389 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21268389). Note that some of those distinctions are legal - where I am, I need to know if I am gifting you money or donating to a nonprofit to report it on the tax record (and I certainly need to know if I were to get my own limited company to "donate"), as going above certain limits makes _me_ liable for tax on gifts as well, including reporting who the recipient is. "I sent that money to a random functional email PayPal@zx2c4.com I can't say much about" does not cut it. Yes, Jason might be at the other end of it - but as is, it fails the smell test compared to other FOSS projects. Simple as that. Can we go back to discussing why Apple is bad due to their ever changing APIs, general disregard for backwards compatibility and for that matter general compatibility with anything else and not one of the few things in the whole process that make sense? Or, for that matter, why Google effectively making GMS and locked bootloader a requirement for corporate and/or finance apps is ensuring that in many areas the existence of unlocked devices/alternative AOSP distributions is and will remain a fig leaf purely there to avoid being considered the one true dominant player?
alias_neo 6y ago
Why though? What do you forsee the issue being with where the money could be going? If Jason is recommending a way to donate to the project, who cares where it goes? If he puts it straight in his pocket and uses it to buy pizza or a computer game, it's still serving its purpose as far as I'm concerned. I have donated, and will do so again, and I'm perfectly happy with the money being used that way. In a sense, for me, it's a thank you for the work thus far, not an payment for more work. I imagine many see this differently, so I'm interested to hear some other opinions.

by vaduz 6y ago

dessant 6y ago

Only nonprofits are allowed to use in-app purchases on the App Store, while other apps must use Safari for fundraisers, read the guidelines in their entirety. > One of the reasons why I do not gift money to WireGuard developer(s) is that they have taken the steps to obscure where and to whom the money is going, which is in and of itself fishy. Just labelling something as 'donation' does not make it so. Your remark about WireGuard developers being fishy and obscuring where the money goes is ridiculous, and the way you framed it, just... wow.

vaduz 6y ago
I actually read them, and they also happen to be quoted upthread. 3.2 Other Business Model Issues [list is not exhaustive] 3.2.1 Acceptable (vi) Approved nonprofits may fundraise directly within their own apps or third-party apps, provided those fundraising campaigns adhere to all App Review Guidelines and offer Apple Pay support. These apps must disclose how the funds will be used, abide by all required local and federal laws, and ensure appropriate tax receipts are available to donors. Additional information shall be provided to App Review upon request. Nonprofit platforms that connect donors to other nonprofits must ensure that every nonprofit listed in the app has also gone through the nonprofit approval process. Learn more about becoming an approved nonprofit. 3.2.2 Unacceptable (iv) Unless you are an approved nonprofit or otherwise permitted under Section 3.2.1 (vi) above, collecting funds within the app for charities and fundraisers. Apps that seek to raise money for such causes must be free on the App Store and may only collect funds outside of the app, such as via Safari or SMS. It would appear that the current understanding is that if you are not a nonprofit, you don't fundraise within the app nor do you provide a link where you can transfer funds. If you are a nonprofit, you can register through the nonprofit program to use Apple Pay (which comes with actual checks of the status). This matches the intent every other point regarding payments, where soliticing money from within the app, even by way of link, is generally prohibited unless specifically allowed under one of the small list of exceptions. Remember when "reader" apps also had to remove links to purchase individual items and replaced it with, at best, "visit our website"? Same intent, same result. As for fishiness, compare these examples: * Signal Technology Foundation is a registered nonprofit foundation, I can check if the money is going to development of Signal (it is). They even do it right by providing the EIN so it is trivial to check. * Mozilla Foundation is a registered nonprofit foundation, I can check if the money is going to the development of the browser (it is not). * WireGuard developers decided it is important for them to keep the information where their business is located private (this is what I am referring to as fishy: I would challenge you to find where that particular "Edge Security" firm is actually operating, as a company, or what zx2c4.com is beside a name that Jason used to tag some files and host a domain, and both are used as "this project is from") and to keep the profits. See the difference? Two are genuine nonprofits entitled to donations, one is a business disguised as one (how much money that business makes is immaterial, it could be $1, it could be millions - I sincerely wish them the latter). Every developer has to make a living somehow - or at least recoup some costs, for FOSS projects - but this is not the way to go about it if you want to claim moral high ground over Apple.
- xyzzy_plugh 6y ago
  I'm confused. Wireguard and Jason/zx2c4 are not a non-profit, nor do they advertise as one. Why are you making it sound like he is doing something nefarious? The argument for the ruling being bad is: the app links to the wireguard webpage (not within the app) which contains information on how to donate. That's like if in my app, I linked to my twitter profile, and my twitter profile contained a link to donate to me. It shouldn't be a problem.
  - vaduz 6y ago
    If you are a business, wth a few defined exceptions ("reader", multiplatform, _physical merchandise from outside of the platform_ etc.), you accept payments through Apple Pay, don't direct people to your website to to send you money regardless how you decide to call it and pay Apple the cut they desire. FOSS developers are still businesses, not charities, much as we like to pretend otherwise - and "tips", "donations", "patronage" and similar verbiage does not change that. If you are an actual nonprofit, you get to ask for donations both via app and your website and have Apple not take the cut. Don't like it - don't deploy on the platfrom, but if you persist you will soon run out of platforms. Note that particular point has also caused WireGuard to be delisted from Google's Play Store before so it should not come as a suprise to anyone (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21268389 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21268389). Note that some of those distinctions are legal - where I am, I need to know if I am gifting you money or donating to a nonprofit to report it on the tax record (and I certainly need to know if I were to get my own limited company to "donate"), as going above certain limits makes _me_ liable for tax on gifts as well, including reporting who the recipient is. "I sent that money to a random functional email PayPal@zx2c4.com I can't say much about" does not cut it. Yes, Jason might be at the other end of it - but as is, it fails the smell test compared to other FOSS projects. Simple as that. Can we go back to discussing why Apple is bad due to their ever changing APIs, general disregard for backwards compatibility and for that matter general compatibility with anything else and not one of the few things in the whole process that make sense? Or, for that matter, why Google effectively making GMS and locked bootloader a requirement for corporate and/or finance apps is ensuring that in many areas the existence of unlocked devices/alternative AOSP distributions is and will remain a fig leaf purely there to avoid being considered the one true dominant player?

alias_neo 6y ago

Why though? What do you forsee the issue being with where the money could be going? If Jason is recommending a way to donate to the project, who cares where it goes? If he puts it straight in his pocket and uses it to buy pizza or a computer game, it's still serving its purpose as far as I'm concerned. I have donated, and will do so again, and I'm perfectly happy with the money being used that way. In a sense, for me, it's a thank you for the work thus far, not an payment for more work. I imagine many see this differently, so I'm interested to hear some other opinions.