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I would gently suggest then that you take some time to read up on the history of racial discrimination, as well as the efforts that have been taken to stop it a

I would gently suggest then that you take some time to read up on the history of racial discrimination, as well as the efforts that have been taken to stop it and attempt to undo some of the long-lasting damage. Discrimination and the tools to fix the outcomes have been extensively discussed and debated in society for decades, and simplistic comparisons like "but if opened a coffee shop…?" don't add any value.

Grustaf 6y ago
I’m not American, I guess this is all obvious to Americans but to most Europeans it’s pretty baffling. And I’m not sure what the problem with my coffee shop example is, are the rules different for shops than for universities, or why is it irrelevant?
- matthewmacleod 6y ago
  I'm European, and it's not that hard. Racial discrimination is a longstanding and complex issue, with lots of different factors feeding into the situation that the US now finds itself in – and there are related (but different) situations all over the world. It's worth taking a step back and thinking a bit about the parts that you are missing. Your specific example is simplified to the point of irrelevance. Coffee shops and universities are different places. Denying service to a group based on their characteristics is a different thing from investing in a program targeted at that group. Actions involving underrepresented groups have different impact from the same actions involving majority groups. It's like pointing out that "you can't shout 'fire' in a crowded theatre so freedom of speech doesn't exist!" when in reality the whole situation is way more complex, and simple examples don't have any relevance.
  - Grustaf 6y ago
    Maybe I’m stupid, but are you saying that it IS illegal in the coffee shop example? Sure it’s different, but for example giving grants and selling coffee, or even giving discounts on coffee, are not THAT different. It would be interesting to know what the legal limit actually is.
    - ziaddotcom 6y ago
      Yes it is illegal to block someone from a coffee shop based on their race. When we say "Black Church" in America, we don't mean a church for Blacks only, we mean churches that historically arose because other races would not allow Blacks in their congregation (be it illegal to discriminate or not). There is no connotation that a "Black Church" wants to exclude other races.
      - Grustaf 6y ago
        I’m not sure what “black churches” have to do with this but I am still curious where the legal limits are.
        ziaddotcom 6y ago
        The legal limits of what? Market segmentation relative to race in a retail environment?
        Grustaf 6y ago
        Under what circumstances it is legal to racially discriminate. It seems to be legal in college admissions and funding allocation, but not if it’s about denying service in e.g. restaurants. So the line is drawn somewhere between those two, I just wonder where.
        ziaddotcom 6y ago
        You say that like it is going to be written once and for all with an instruction manual. America uses a common law system and case precedent over time. You seem rather concerned with college admissions, where is your concern for the fact that many if not most elite public American high schools would be out of reach for racial minorities even if their child has has perfect grades since Kindergarden. These kids can't simply 'apply' to whichever high school in the country they please. In Europe it is illegal to label a wine Champagne if the grape is the wrong color or not grown in a particular bespoke part of France. Yet, you are baffled the line for racial equity in America is somewhat gray, absurd.

Grustaf 6y ago

I’m not American, I guess this is all obvious to Americans but to most Europeans it’s pretty baffling. And I’m not sure what the problem with my coffee shop example is, are the rules different for shops than for universities, or why is it irrelevant?

matthewmacleod 6y ago
I'm European, and it's not that hard. Racial discrimination is a longstanding and complex issue, with lots of different factors feeding into the situation that the US now finds itself in – and there are related (but different) situations all over the world. It's worth taking a step back and thinking a bit about the parts that you are missing. Your specific example is simplified to the point of irrelevance. Coffee shops and universities are different places. Denying service to a group based on their characteristics is a different thing from investing in a program targeted at that group. Actions involving underrepresented groups have different impact from the same actions involving majority groups. It's like pointing out that "you can't shout 'fire' in a crowded theatre so freedom of speech doesn't exist!" when in reality the whole situation is way more complex, and simple examples don't have any relevance.
- Grustaf 6y ago
  Maybe I’m stupid, but are you saying that it IS illegal in the coffee shop example? Sure it’s different, but for example giving grants and selling coffee, or even giving discounts on coffee, are not THAT different. It would be interesting to know what the legal limit actually is.
  - ziaddotcom 6y ago
    Yes it is illegal to block someone from a coffee shop based on their race. When we say "Black Church" in America, we don't mean a church for Blacks only, we mean churches that historically arose because other races would not allow Blacks in their congregation (be it illegal to discriminate or not). There is no connotation that a "Black Church" wants to exclude other races.
    - Grustaf 6y ago
      I’m not sure what “black churches” have to do with this but I am still curious where the legal limits are.
      - ziaddotcom 6y ago
        The legal limits of what? Market segmentation relative to race in a retail environment?
        Grustaf 6y ago
        Under what circumstances it is legal to racially discriminate. It seems to be legal in college admissions and funding allocation, but not if it’s about denying service in e.g. restaurants. So the line is drawn somewhere between those two, I just wonder where.
        ziaddotcom 6y ago
        You say that like it is going to be written once and for all with an instruction manual. America uses a common law system and case precedent over time. You seem rather concerned with college admissions, where is your concern for the fact that many if not most elite public American high schools would be out of reach for racial minorities even if their child has has perfect grades since Kindergarden. These kids can't simply 'apply' to whichever high school in the country they please. In Europe it is illegal to label a wine Champagne if the grape is the wrong color or not grown in a particular bespoke part of France. Yet, you are baffled the line for racial equity in America is somewhat gray, absurd.