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The question IMHO is, if people want to have a discussion, do downvotes without an explanation help to facilitate it? I think they do, but I don't think it's a

The question IMHO is, if people want to have a discussion, do downvotes without an explanation help to facilitate it? I think they do, but I don't think it's an open and shut case. I see downvotes as dual-purpose. They are a behavioral nudge for the commenter, and they are a signal to everyone else that the comment does not contribute to healthy discussion. I'm fine if they fail to be the former in some cases. I've met a decent number of high functioning people in real life who are emotionally incapable of introspection and will go down the rabbit hole to defend something they've said/done that was clearly an asshole thing to say/do in the moment. Responding just gives them a target (you) for the inevitable defensive reaction. There are few people like that, but I've had enough interactions with the internet equivalent of this over my lifetime that I've long since given up on the idea that anybody who clearly comes across as an asshole on the internet will get reformed by a nicely worded "stop being mean". The other case where I might downvote and not respond is when it's a tired debate (usually political, often over diversity/equality related topics) and the comment is arguing with common talking points that use incorrect facts or is arguing with common bad faith talking points. I've been in too many of those over the years too. I'm not going to be the magical person who gets the other anonymous internet poster to recognize the error of their ways. Outside of those cases, I tend to respond after downvoting. Or just not downvote and respond anyway.

js8 6y ago
OK, let's assume you're not interested in "nudging" the poster. (I don't think downvote is a nudge, because that requires an explanation or direction, but put that aside.) "The other case where I might downvote and not respond is when it's a tired debate (usually political, often over diversity/equality related topics) and the comment is arguing with common talking points that use incorrect facts or is arguing with common bad faith talking points." Well, consider that these common bad faith talking points are repeated because nobody bothers to rebut them properly. If other people (not the OP) see these, they might think of them as valid arguments. If you respond to them, you are also explaining to others, why they are not valid. It is a lot more helpful (you can actually convince someone) than just downvoting. And if your counter-argument is really good, it might be picked up by people on your side, too.
- munchbunny 6y ago
  I'm sure you've encountered the type of talking point, especially in political discourse, where the rebuttal is commonly available and you can more or less guess what the rebuttal to the rebuttal is, and what comes after that, until it's reduced to the same points you've seen before. Every time diversity issues in Silicon Valley come up on HN, there are at least several of those in the thread. Those discussions are almost always polarizing, even for bystanders. If the goal is to be helpful and to convince bystanders, then I think it's much more productive to find and engage with the comments where people are asking thoughtful questions, engaging healthily, or giving an overview of the common points made on the topic. Or just upvote those for visibility instead.
loceng 6y ago
A downvote is behavioural nudge with no guidance - it's a nudge in a pitch black cavern that you're somehow expecting them to navigate and learn from? "Oh, maybe I said something bad or wrong or they didn't understand me or ??????" Even worse maybe emotionally they'll start thinking people hate them or something is wrong with them without knowing why, and then they'll disengage. Is that really how we want to treat people? Likewise, how do you determine if it's a quality downvote - as in, is the downvoter actually interpreting what's being said adequately? Maybe the downvoter is biased somehow, e.g. suppressing anti-CPP commentary seems to be more common even when they are thoughtful and critical responses. If the downvoter is forced to actually reply with a qualitative response, then the OP would be able to either realize they didn't explain clearly enough - or we'd all be able to determine the would-be downvoter isn't reasonable or with incongruent logic. I'd say the cost of spending time to think through enough to respond with writing is a fair, good cost, in order to participate vs. getting a quick hit of dopamine with a downvote click; everyone grows then and refines themselves and help to refine others.
- FalconSensei 6y ago
  > it's a nudge in a pitch black cavern that you're somehow expecting them to navigate and learn from Exactly. I expect in the end, downvoting without any explanation will just keep people in their eco-chambers, as at least there they are not downvoted.

js8 6y ago

OK, let's assume you're not interested in "nudging" the poster. (I don't think downvote is a nudge, because that requires an explanation or direction, but put that aside.) "The other case where I might downvote and not respond is when it's a tired debate (usually political, often over diversity/equality related topics) and the comment is arguing with common talking points that use incorrect facts or is arguing with common bad faith talking points." Well, consider that these common bad faith talking points are repeated because nobody bothers to rebut them properly. If other people (not the OP) see these, they might think of them as valid arguments. If you respond to them, you are also explaining to others, why they are not valid. It is a lot more helpful (you can actually convince someone) than just downvoting. And if your counter-argument is really good, it might be picked up by people on your side, too.

munchbunny 6y ago
I'm sure you've encountered the type of talking point, especially in political discourse, where the rebuttal is commonly available and you can more or less guess what the rebuttal to the rebuttal is, and what comes after that, until it's reduced to the same points you've seen before. Every time diversity issues in Silicon Valley come up on HN, there are at least several of those in the thread. Those discussions are almost always polarizing, even for bystanders. If the goal is to be helpful and to convince bystanders, then I think it's much more productive to find and engage with the comments where people are asking thoughtful questions, engaging healthily, or giving an overview of the common points made on the topic. Or just upvote those for visibility instead.

loceng 6y ago

A downvote is behavioural nudge with no guidance - it's a nudge in a pitch black cavern that you're somehow expecting them to navigate and learn from? "Oh, maybe I said something bad or wrong or they didn't understand me or ??????" Even worse maybe emotionally they'll start thinking people hate them or something is wrong with them without knowing why, and then they'll disengage. Is that really how we want to treat people? Likewise, how do you determine if it's a quality downvote - as in, is the downvoter actually interpreting what's being said adequately? Maybe the downvoter is biased somehow, e.g. suppressing anti-CPP commentary seems to be more common even when they are thoughtful and critical responses. If the downvoter is forced to actually reply with a qualitative response, then the OP would be able to either realize they didn't explain clearly enough - or we'd all be able to determine the would-be downvoter isn't reasonable or with incongruent logic. I'd say the cost of spending time to think through enough to respond with writing is a fair, good cost, in order to participate vs. getting a quick hit of dopamine with a downvote click; everyone grows then and refines themselves and help to refine others.

FalconSensei 6y ago
> it's a nudge in a pitch black cavern that you're somehow expecting them to navigate and learn from Exactly. I expect in the end, downvoting without any explanation will just keep people in their eco-chambers, as at least there they are not downvoted.