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I mostly feel the same, but I think there are differences in context - for example: - HN: Some really repugnant attitudes from time to time need to be downvote

I mostly feel the same, but I think there are differences in context - for example: - HN: Some really repugnant attitudes from time to time need to be downvoted. For example, personal attacks and things that would have been moderated out of existence on other platforms. - Stack Overflow et al: Answers that are objectively and dangerously wrong. And I don't mean answers that just misread the question - those actually might be useful for someone else who stumbled on the page looking for exactly that thing. I mean answers that are dangerous, vulnerable, misleading, or represent an extreme viewpoint as fact ("buhh object orientation is dangerous, you must write C++ using functional paradigms, it's the only way to make good programs") I worry that if stuff like this doesn't get downvoted by some, these things will be considered valid - or even acceptable - by others.

js8 6y ago
"Answers that are objectively and dangerously wrong." I don't think anybody reading an Internet discussion has so little time not to add to the downvote: "This part of your comment is horribly wrong, I warn others against doing it." Actually, I think I would be more convinced to be careful with that sentence than just seeing bunch of downvotes.
- undecisive 6y ago
  Absolutely. Usually there's no problem in doing both (hence, I guess, the OP) But commenting without downvoting skews the ordering algorithms, and of course if someone else has already made a similar enough comment that you wouldn't be adding materially to the conversation, adding a similar comment just makes the post look busy an therefore, potentially, interesting.
  - js8 6y ago
    In my other comment here, I suggested a solution to the duplication problem - you can downvote only if you either create a reply or upvote an existing reply (as a sign of agreement).
    - undecisive 6y ago
      That would be a nice feature. Or much like a "report" button on some platforms, if clicking downvote meant you had to say why you had disliked, and it gives you the usual moderation options, all the other comments that it could auto-upvote, or a free-text field that automatically creates a comment... that would probably be the least-friction way of dealing with it.
    - FalconSensei 6y ago
      That would be great! I agree with parent comments that sometimes downvoting without commenting serves no purpose. You got a downvoted comment with no replies. Now, why was it downvoted? You can reread it and see if you were rude/offensive, but besides that...
loceng 6y ago
There's a report option. If something is dangerously wrong, then put the effort into saying so - perhaps explaining why; the person who posted the content that's "dangerously wrong" won't learn that either if no one shares it with them.
leonardteo 6y ago
Re: Stack Overflow, while I agree with you, most of my experience with SO downvoting has purely to do with other members thinking "I feel this is a stupid question so I will downvote you". Usually SO is a last resort for me once I have done enough research and read through lots of documentation for hours trying to understand why something does not work as expected. I ask a question on SO, and rather than being answered, am downvoted and belittled in the comments. It has made SO a toxic place where honest questions that are researched prior are punished. I do understand why it happens though because for every honest question, there's probably thousands of questions from people who obviously don't do any research. Then having your "Thank you for answering my question" comment removed by SO moderators because they don't want thank you's on the platform... It's just turned into too much of a toxic place and is an absolute last resort. IMO. Others experiences may be different :) The point is that people generally downvote for whatever reason they want. Even with community standards that help to educate people, by empowering people to downvote, they just exercise that right and it has consequences for the community.
- fakedang 6y ago
  > Re: Stack Overflow, while I agree with you, most of my experience with SO downvoting has purely to do with other members thinking "I feel this is a stupid question so I will downvote you". This has been my experience too. For someone like me who's a non-professional programming hobbyist, SO has been one of the most toxic and unhelpful communities. My only helpful experiences there are with the people who also happen to have their real names for their user ids. I've had questions downvoted because I omitted something that "should have been there", downvoted because I included some things that "should not have been there", downvoted because I "asked for a suggestion" (eg: which type of DB is better for this kind of data?), or because I asked for something "that has been asked elsewhere", even though the two questions might have different tech stacks and use cases altogether. I recommend most beginner programmers to go to reddit instead, where there's a less barrier to entry and visibility for questions. People are happy to answer you in Reddit for some karma, while on SO, the people who answer correctly have to subtly beg the questioner to mark the answer as correct.
mlthoughts2018 6y ago
Since when is avoidance of OOP an extreme viewpoint? Few pieces of advice have served me as well as that. It seems fine to disagree - but if that is your standard of “extreme” or “dangerous” it makes you seem like a crank and makes your justifications for downvoting seem very biased and wrong.
- undecisive 6y ago
  (love the fact that this comment was downvoted! Sorry for the effect that has on your karma though) The dangerous part is presuming that no good software can come from OO. A comment like "I would prefer to see this in a functional paradigm, with as few side effects as possible" is absolutely fine. The statement that all OO is bad makes an absolute out of a subjective, rubbishes the work and effort of millions and may cause a relative beginner to ignore learning a paradigm that is fundamental to their growth and learning as a developer. Now then, that said... if you wanted an argument over avoiding OOP, I would argue any statement that categorically says "Avoid X" is an oversimplification. Everything is a balance of strengths and weaknesses, and there are times when OO is the right tool for the job. You are welcome to disagree, and I wouldn't downvote you for doing so _in this context_, but in a Stack Overflow context, depending on how you say it, I very well might if I considered your words dangerous enough. (i.e. Silver bullets kill more than just werewolves)
  - bostonsre 6y ago
    It seems lame to downvote due to a debatable disagreement. It stomps out unpopular ideas in a forum where they should be allowed and discussed/debated. I don't agree with the viewpoint that OOP should be avoided, but I would like to hear why some people are opposed to OOP.
    - undecisive 6y ago
      Again, I agree, but only in context. On Hacker News, I totally agree that downvoting debatable views that are expressed poorly is totally unnecessary. If it isn't a statement that is outright dangerous or intentionally hurtful, my bar for downvoting here is very high. I would trust the audience to discern for themselves. On Stack overflow, you are essentially there to teach people something. "Don't ever do X" is not going to teach something. Unpopular ideas (and even some popular ones) should be backed up with cogent reasoning, and I think downvoting (with an explanation) is the best way to tell future visitors "this is (probably) not the answer you are looking for".
watwut 6y ago
> HN: Some really repugnant attitudes from time to time need to be downvoted. For example, personal attacks and things that would have been moderated out of existence on other platforms. What are things that are moderated out of existence on other platforms and not on HN?
briefcomment 6y ago
> Some really repugnant attitudes from time to time need to be downvoted. I disagree. Just call them out. I don't like it when anything is disappeared

js8 6y ago

"Answers that are objectively and dangerously wrong." I don't think anybody reading an Internet discussion has so little time not to add to the downvote: "This part of your comment is horribly wrong, I warn others against doing it." Actually, I think I would be more convinced to be careful with that sentence than just seeing bunch of downvotes.

undecisive 6y ago
Absolutely. Usually there's no problem in doing both (hence, I guess, the OP) But commenting without downvoting skews the ordering algorithms, and of course if someone else has already made a similar enough comment that you wouldn't be adding materially to the conversation, adding a similar comment just makes the post look busy an therefore, potentially, interesting.
- js8 6y ago
  In my other comment here, I suggested a solution to the duplication problem - you can downvote only if you either create a reply or upvote an existing reply (as a sign of agreement).
  - undecisive 6y ago
    That would be a nice feature. Or much like a "report" button on some platforms, if clicking downvote meant you had to say why you had disliked, and it gives you the usual moderation options, all the other comments that it could auto-upvote, or a free-text field that automatically creates a comment... that would probably be the least-friction way of dealing with it.
  - FalconSensei 6y ago
    That would be great! I agree with parent comments that sometimes downvoting without commenting serves no purpose. You got a downvoted comment with no replies. Now, why was it downvoted? You can reread it and see if you were rude/offensive, but besides that...

loceng 6y ago

There's a report option. If something is dangerously wrong, then put the effort into saying so - perhaps explaining why; the person who posted the content that's "dangerously wrong" won't learn that either if no one shares it with them.

leonardteo 6y ago

Re: Stack Overflow, while I agree with you, most of my experience with SO downvoting has purely to do with other members thinking "I feel this is a stupid question so I will downvote you". Usually SO is a last resort for me once I have done enough research and read through lots of documentation for hours trying to understand why something does not work as expected. I ask a question on SO, and rather than being answered, am downvoted and belittled in the comments. It has made SO a toxic place where honest questions that are researched prior are punished. I do understand why it happens though because for every honest question, there's probably thousands of questions from people who obviously don't do any research. Then having your "Thank you for answering my question" comment removed by SO moderators because they don't want thank you's on the platform... It's just turned into too much of a toxic place and is an absolute last resort. IMO. Others experiences may be different :) The point is that people generally downvote for whatever reason they want. Even with community standards that help to educate people, by empowering people to downvote, they just exercise that right and it has consequences for the community.

fakedang 6y ago
> Re: Stack Overflow, while I agree with you, most of my experience with SO downvoting has purely to do with other members thinking "I feel this is a stupid question so I will downvote you". This has been my experience too. For someone like me who's a non-professional programming hobbyist, SO has been one of the most toxic and unhelpful communities. My only helpful experiences there are with the people who also happen to have their real names for their user ids. I've had questions downvoted because I omitted something that "should have been there", downvoted because I included some things that "should not have been there", downvoted because I "asked for a suggestion" (eg: which type of DB is better for this kind of data?), or because I asked for something "that has been asked elsewhere", even though the two questions might have different tech stacks and use cases altogether. I recommend most beginner programmers to go to reddit instead, where there's a less barrier to entry and visibility for questions. People are happy to answer you in Reddit for some karma, while on SO, the people who answer correctly have to subtly beg the questioner to mark the answer as correct.

mlthoughts2018 6y ago

Since when is avoidance of OOP an extreme viewpoint? Few pieces of advice have served me as well as that. It seems fine to disagree - but if that is your standard of “extreme” or “dangerous” it makes you seem like a crank and makes your justifications for downvoting seem very biased and wrong.

undecisive 6y ago
(love the fact that this comment was downvoted! Sorry for the effect that has on your karma though) The dangerous part is presuming that no good software can come from OO. A comment like "I would prefer to see this in a functional paradigm, with as few side effects as possible" is absolutely fine. The statement that all OO is bad makes an absolute out of a subjective, rubbishes the work and effort of millions and may cause a relative beginner to ignore learning a paradigm that is fundamental to their growth and learning as a developer. Now then, that said... if you wanted an argument over avoiding OOP, I would argue any statement that categorically says "Avoid X" is an oversimplification. Everything is a balance of strengths and weaknesses, and there are times when OO is the right tool for the job. You are welcome to disagree, and I wouldn't downvote you for doing so _in this context_, but in a Stack Overflow context, depending on how you say it, I very well might if I considered your words dangerous enough. (i.e. Silver bullets kill more than just werewolves)
- bostonsre 6y ago
  It seems lame to downvote due to a debatable disagreement. It stomps out unpopular ideas in a forum where they should be allowed and discussed/debated. I don't agree with the viewpoint that OOP should be avoided, but I would like to hear why some people are opposed to OOP.
  - undecisive 6y ago
    Again, I agree, but only in context. On Hacker News, I totally agree that downvoting debatable views that are expressed poorly is totally unnecessary. If it isn't a statement that is outright dangerous or intentionally hurtful, my bar for downvoting here is very high. I would trust the audience to discern for themselves. On Stack overflow, you are essentially there to teach people something. "Don't ever do X" is not going to teach something. Unpopular ideas (and even some popular ones) should be backed up with cogent reasoning, and I think downvoting (with an explanation) is the best way to tell future visitors "this is (probably) not the answer you are looking for".

watwut 6y ago

> HN: Some really repugnant attitudes from time to time need to be downvoted. For example, personal attacks and things that would have been moderated out of existence on other platforms. What are things that are moderated out of existence on other platforms and not on HN?

briefcomment 6y ago

> Some really repugnant attitudes from time to time need to be downvoted. I disagree. Just call them out. I don't like it when anything is disappeared